SPS Governance Proposal - Restrict Gladiator Cards Below Silver League
Community Proposal #10
The purpose of this proposal is to address community concerns that Gladiator cards are making the Bronze League overwhelmingly difficult and nearly impossible for players that do not have Gladiator cards, including new and returning players. As there's no way to rent these cards, earning them takes a significant time investment and there are also few if any counters available at the Bronze level, the community would like to suggest a solution.
If this proposal passes, the Conscript ability will not appear on any card until it is adequately leveled for Silver League ranked play. The existing Rewards Summoners will not have the Conscript ability until level 3, which will require altering the cards. This will also mean that the "Are You Not Entertained?" ruleset will no longer appear below Silver League play.
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Link to this Pre-Proposal
Updated At: 2023-12-27 01:56 UTC
IMO the better way would be to add Gladiator-Cards to the Untamed-Set. In this case they wouldn't be playable in modern and the Ruleset "Are You Not Entertained?" can still be active as in modern their would just be no cards for this ruleset.
I don't see the reason why it is neccessary to ban gladiator cards in wild as new player will probably start with modern.
I would like if gladiators (Like they were originally intended) would not be allowed in Ranked play at all. But this is a step towards that, so a Strong YES by me.
Just to clarify, I'm not against the Bloodlust ability in ranked, but the gladiator cards specifically
I agree that Gladiator should NEVER added to ranked play at ALL and it was promised when they come out that will be only playable in brawls, however I am strictly against THIS proposal because it doesn't think about what will happen to the Soulbound Summoners. These were issued as reward cards, one or the other may have bought energy and now their most important ability, which is priced at 3 mana, should simply be taken away without any compensation?
Sorry, but that's ridiculous - In my opinion, the creator of the proposal should have thought about it and suggested something about how this problem could be solved, downgrading a 6-mana summoner's abilities to a 3-mana summoner, but that Leaving the cost at 6 mana is unacceptable.
Imagine you go to your favorite steakhouse and get a hamburger instead of the steak you ordered, but you have to pay for the steak?
quitar los bots y ayudantes de batalla
Seems to accomplish multiple things. It takes the power away from soulbound summoners in lower leagues and it makes the game playable for humans in lower leagues. Yes for me.
There's the solution for you. Banning seems to be the lazy approach, why not just adopt these 2 suggestions.
The whole point of soulbound / gladiator cards is rewards for those who have been playing. New and returning users should struggle against them. But overall this is splinterlands the game vs splinterland the crypto debate.
I don't know how many people I heard last June / July saying I'm just gonna sell my stuff and come back next bull... which just makes any bear that much worst because there is very little from a game perspective to keep them playing. Gladiator cards at the time were the only thing then we got soulbound.
The whole point of both is you can't buy them or rent them I'm still hopeful soulbound cards will never be unbindable.
Those playing can buy / rent the card to play in higher leagues, brawl are a small part of the game / earnings. Playing in higher leagues will earn them gladiator card quicker. There are plenty of ways for new and returning playing to earn them and faster out side of bronze. Bronze is supposed to just be the place to get to know the game not live and earn.
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Sounds like a very smart move to help our new player experience. Slam dunk this one!
it's funny that people here vote yes. but at the same time want to prevent soulbound cards from being unlocked. that's extremely questionable.
because soulbound cards that are not unlocked are even worse for new players.
gladiators can at least be farmed by new players, just too slowly.
they could never get the soulbound cards....
They would now get a 6 mana cost summoner like Lobb Lowlands without any abilities. Lucky them.
I think unlocking the gladiator cards would be THE SOLUTION. 2nd I would say ban them in modern if they must be banned. The league lock will also help returning players when stuck in bronze.
When you refer to "Silver League play" are you only talking about Wild Ranked and Modern Ranked? Or will parts of this proposal affect tournaments (Novice/Bronze tournaments) or brawls (Novice/Bronze frays)?
So in a Novice level brawl fray, the reward summoners won't have Conscript and you won't see "Are you Not Entertained" (even though you can still use 1 gladiator because it is a brawl)?
Right, essentially we asked what the easiest approach for getting the team to implement this change was. Went back and forth a bit and ended up on restricting Conscript and the rulesets until Silver level. For posterity I'm voting no on this. I've heard the concerns and seen the debates... I don't really know what the solution is here but I am not convinced this is it.
Mi respuesta es SI y NO ya que nunca debió salir para lo que nacieron pero ya está lo que si se puede llevar es eliminarlo de la Liga bronce Moderno y mantenerla en Wild ya que esto incentiva a más jugadores entrar en clanes
Point of Order:
The folks in Silver don't have enough voting power to make a meaningful impact in this vote, which is being done "to" them.
Another alternative is to remove Summoner abilities in Silver that allow Gladiator cards in Silver ranked play altogether.
The irony.
And I was having a great day before I read this proposal.
Although I agree that gladiator cards are OP in bronze level, I don't think banning is the way to go here. In the past, the game always found ways to counter strong abilities in order to keep the balance. A new ability can be added for example, something like giant killer that only works against gladiator cards or a protection ability that prevents all the damage from gladiators. (I'm just making up here, i'm sure the team can be more creative)
I was in bronze once and LLama was a way bigger obstacle to handle than any gladiator cards, and it was too expensive to rent everyday. So instead of suggesting a ban, I just spent hours to think of new strategies to beat LLama+Kron. Actually it really helped to improve my skills for the long run. Same thing can be done against gladiators.
And let's be honest here, the main problem is Quora by far. With 2 martyrs on each side, it is very hard to beat that line-up. But it's not impossible.
I'm fine with removing "are you not entertained" ruleset from bronze, but removing the summoner abilities is not good idea imo.
Instead of banning them why don't you join a guild so you can earn them in brawls and be competitive? I don't think aspects of the game should be nerfed when there is a way around the 'problem' as you see it. I'm voting NO.
Terrible idea... these cards are only unlocked by playing in and doing well in a ton of brawls. Any new player in any league will have issues. Can't rent a Gold deck and get these, you will still be missing them. Either unlock them, or leave them for all to play. Otherwise you are giving literally useless brawl rewards to players who buy and build their decks to play in bronze.
Legendary summoners are worse for new players. I lost so many matches when I came back to Kron, Lamma, and Yodin that I could not afford to buy, and renting was impossible at times, but they got phased out and the playing field leveled.
It would be better to tie these to a set, and phase them out like the promo and old reward cards. Moved out of modern and into Wild, release new Gladius cards.
Why not simply develop a ruleset " Gladiator cards are not allowed " ?
I think I'm going to have to vote "no" here.
I agree it's a problem, but this is a band-aid that obfuscates the underlying issue. The problem exists in higher leagues (silver/gold/diamond) as well.
Essentially:
#1. Some Gladiators are OP
#2. Soulbound cards can be ridiculously hard to get
Point #2 is a separate issue and also applies to soulbound reward cards. When you've been playing regularly for a year and still don't have key soulbound reward cards so you know certain match-ups are going to be auto-losses, it is super frustrating. But that should be talked about separately.
As for Point #1, Gladiators were not playtested thoroughly because at the time it was a niche gimmick that was intended for brawl use only. I think at this point the options are:
A. Try to rollback Gladiator use in non-brawls (ban/remove Conscript summoners and the ruleset). I think this would be more challenging because a large part of the soulbound rewards card is the conscript summoners.
B. Errata the problematic gladiators.
At the end of the day, the problem (in novice/bronze/silver/gold/diamond leagues) is NOT Conscription + Gorth or Helmet or Alva or Xulax. The Problem is Conscription + Quora or Captain Katie or Katrelba or Isgald or Fina.
If I had to rank the gladiators:
S Tier:
Quora Towershead
A Tier:
Isgald Vorst
Bertrol Gobson
Katrelba Gobson
Whistling Damon
Captain Katie
Fina Voxum
B Tier:
Chimney Wallstop
Orella Abadon
Marisol Contuma
Flagulon Reine
Jini Guise
Sola Ranjell
Larissa Kerato
C Tier:
Krash Wanderford
Alva the Crusher
Hugo Strongsword
Witch of Warwick
Sarius
Alfredo
Relenor Cleavor
Cutter Brieze
Ajax Lightfoot
Liza Fox
Tatiana Blayde
D Tier:
Helmet Kharafax
Edith Emberstar
Trapp Falloway
F Tier:
Paladon Rakk
Kotriphus Bane
Gorth
Xulax Nightwind
See any common themes? Since Bloodlust is the central feature of gladiators, any abilities that improve the chance of getting bloodlust kills are especially strong such as dual attack types (Quora), opportunity (Fina/Isgald/Bertrol), snipe (Katie/Damon), sneak (Katrelba), and Double Strike (Katrelba).
I think the better solution is to errata the one S Tier gladiator (Quora), the 6 A Tier (Isgald, Bertrol, Katrelba, Damon, Katie, Fina), and possibly some of the top B Tier gladiators. And then potentially think about improving the D and F tier gladiators.
To be honest, the gladiator cards are a good addition but it's not as OP in bronze as long as you know how to counter it.
for Quora, just rent Doctor Blight. IT's only 0.57 cents. If you use earth, you can combo it with Obsidian. With the lack of Cleanse in lower league, this actually kills Quora builds.
You can even just use Djinn Oshannus + shield (Prophet Rosa) to counter most of them.
For Katriela Gobson, use Venari Knifer at the back.
Not to mention that ALL bloodlust changes can be countered by dispel.
Gladiators are not really a problem now since there are many outs due to Rebellion. And isn't this why Summoner Tactics are made? So, you can re-strategize after seeing your opponent's build?
this proposal seems rushed and was not thought well. Maybe the whales in the leaderboards in bronze and silver are struggling and that's why they wanted these removed.
This exactly. My Quora often gets countered by Blight and dispel sets her right back to basic. I don't rent, because I can't guarantee having the time to actually play more than a few games at a time. So
I don't have Doctor Blight in my arsenal, but as you say, he's easy enough for new players to get hold of if they want.
I think that all gladiator cards can be devastating if they get the chance to get rolling. I remember a circumstance when I used Gorth to defeat Quora highlighting the flaw in attempting to rate these cards. They all have circumstances where they can shine. A key to winning battles is not to be predictable and if I can see a pattern of play I can devise a strategy to counter it. Putting together a set of cards that work as a team can defeat any knuckleheaded monster set. The countless number of times I have been blasted to bits by Yodin when I didn't see it coming. The even more countless times I have played a forward focused attack when I need to attack the backline. Nobody is going to win every encounter the game just doesn't work that way. It is good that gladiators are not easy to obtain and it is great that they are obtainable for everyone willing to put some effort in.
I'm going to post this as a comment here since there are a lot of questions/concerns/criticisms of the proposal. This was not my idea and I don't know enough about Bronze league to make an informed decision. I've heard many arguments and debates on this topic, spoke to one of the devs to figure out what an actionable proposal could look like and put this together based on the consensus in the Discord chat after much debate.
For posterity I'm voting no because while I've heard arguments on both sides I'm just not convinced this is "doing it for bronze players" instead of "doing it to bronze players." This is a DAO though and my 1 opinion is just that. It's for all of you to decide how to vote.
I like the proposal, but i also think that we need more clarity about the future of Gladiator cards... are they going to be forever unbound?
The only issue that I foresee with this approach is that there is nothing stopping a silver ranked player from utilizing these cards in the bronze league making it even harder for those close to breaking into Silver from doing so. I come across many opponents when I am finally breaking into Silver that have more than enough power to be in silver league but never agreed to enter into Silver. I can only assume it is to farm a large number of lower level rewards to level/rent. Though in the bigger picture that doesn't make sense, it still happens regularly in my experience where I fight people pushing silver 2 or 1 still fighting in Bronze. Quora sucks, but I've beat her without my gladiators, prior to Rebellion using strategy!
I rarely interact or comment on proposals, since Im not actually expert or somethin, or have deep insights on things. But, I do know 1 thing, this proposal is for the bot-farmers in the bronze league. some will say, bot are banned in modern. But not all of them., and these bots doesnt usually use gladiator cards. they use rented cards and quite good at imitating players and you might think it is an actual players since the placement of cards are really that good.
but the point is. banning gladiator cards will essentially make the reward card summoner quite useless. with its high mana use, and only 1 ability it can provide. its better to have no gladiator rule set than outright ban gladiator cards.. let the summoner that have conscript to use gladiator, and remove the gladiator rule set.
or
if they really ban the gladiator cards in the summoners... Lower down the mana usage of reward summoner to 2 or 3. since 6 is too much for a 1 ability. or better yet, let them ban conscript ability but make the reward summoner card grant abilities like the new rebellion cards.
if the author of the idea behind this proposal is really aimed to ensure the new and returning players can enjoy the game, then put also a gladiator cards as a starter cards.. that way, they can use it when there is gladiator rule set, and or when they get a summoner reward card thru playing. they can also use the gladiator starter card.
rather than patronizing bot-farmers, i think the by leveling the gameplay that you think is quite unfair or OP, then let then also use it in a simple way. make it starter cards.. if they use it, they get no reward sps but new and returning players can have a grasp of the ability and usage of the gladiator cards.. if they want to have them let them play in the brawls, or at least collect merits to be able to buy gladiator pack and try their luck.
whether we dig deep or analyze this proposal or not, in the end result here, only those bot-farming that have coded to not use the gladiator cards will benefit, not the so called new and returning players.
#justmycent
Great comment!
"if the author of the idea behind this proposal is really aimed to ensure the new and returning players can enjoy the game, then put also a gladiator cards as a starter cards.. that way, they can use it when there is gladiator rule set, and or when they get a summoner reward card thru playing. they can also use the gladiator starter card."
Thank you! This part of your comment is my favorite. I was going to suggest the same thing. If the issue for new and returning players is access to Gladiator cards, then a better solution would be to make Common and Rare Gladiator cards accessible to players as Starter cards. Starter cards were a huge help for me when I started playing Splinterlands right at the beginning of Chaos Legion; this would be a viable option for players who start their first brawls. I'm sure that appropriate parameters can be put in place to make this work as well.
Long story short: don't ban Gladiators; make them Starter Cards.
I play in bronze league, and i find the way to find gladiator cards. But i don't want play in silver. It's a strange proposal.
Clarification in tournaments and brawls or just ranked play?
Edited in all formats hmm, slight oppose I guess since I kind of like the edge in brawls and it seems fair given how long it took to earn Gladiators for brawls.
this game is full of aholes that are afraid a little player will win a few games.
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Joining a guild is a good thing for new players and should be encouraged because it builds relationships and grows the community. Throwing a nerf bomb at the gladiator system undermines the value of joining a guild.
Summoner cards like Yodin, Kitty and LLama have been even more dominant in battle than Gladiators and priced out of reach for many new payers to own but there has never been an uprising to suggest they are not suitable for bronze play.
There are other ways to tackle the dominance of overpowered cards such as introducing new cards that are more affective against them or by allowing them to be traded or by just using the existing cards that can (stun, dispel, half, cripple or afflict) in more cunning ways.
"Throwing a nerf bomb at the gladiator system undermines the value of joining a guild."
And that is the reason why I never joined guild and brawl before the announcement of the Conscript. I can't use it for rank so why would I waste time joining guilds? Yes, I do get SPS but they also require weekly donations of SPS. It's like, "Hey, we'll give you three bread if you give us four. sounds fair?"
There are lots of reasons for joining a guild and most of the guilds don't enforce ongoing payments. The rewards include SPS and gladiators. I have a gold foil epic gladiator and if want I can burn it for 10k DEC but I would rather use it in battle.
A decent guild wants to make sure you benefit from being there, not lose out. I left my first guild because it was costing me more than I was gaining. Then I was poached by another which I tried to turn down, explaining why I left the first. Now I just contribute when I can and actually contribute more than I used to, because I'm benefiting more.
Right on minismallholding nothing to stop anyone from moving around to find a guild that suits you and respects you. Wouldn't it be good if the Splinterlands team created a space where guilds could register as new player friendly and actively encourage new players to join them and start earning their gladiator rewards. Rather than denying them the fun of using them show them how to get them early in their player experience. A greater emphasis on making the game fun to play is what is needed here.
I was thinking about this. EVERY new player gets assigned a random open guild. This can also be means of tutorial or getting to know the guild system.
Or if not auto assigned, just teach them how to join one and what are the benefits when they start.
For a new player that is yet to own any SPS then guild rewards would have to be one of the fastest ways to earn SPS. So I was thinking that to make it even more attractive for new players to join guilds early a requirement that the participating guilds delegate a nominal 200 SPS to the new entrant to help them on their way would really help. So when a new player arrives they need SPS and all they have to do is join one of those guilds and wow there is the easiest 200 SPS they will ever get. They would of course lose it if they were to leave or get kicked.
I was literally just thinking the same thing myself last night, although for different reasons. I suspect focusing on on enjoyment of play will solve some other issues in the game too.
this is a classic example of a knee jerk reaction
these cards are fucking REWARDS!!! and you think players with money to burn won't farm bronze leauge??!! you are NOT THINKING STRIGHT!
I feel like the only reason this is a problem is because of high level players farming the lower levels for the rewards that the top players of each league get. If that didn't apply to the bronze league none of this would be an issue.
It is bad idea, Gladius cards make this game more interesting and they are soulbound, so they need be used somewhere.
Being able to employ our full account lineup is what separates human players from bots and bot farms.
Banning Gladius cards in bronze only makes way for new bot accounts.
Wouldn't that be more unfair to newer players?
If you will only unlock the Conscript ability, then that means:
level 5 common
level 4 rare
level 3 epic
level 2 legendaries
and at least Gold League
in order to get the full earning requirement.
Just to give new players idea of HOW HARD TO FARM THESE CARDS, in my guild, I earn 600-800 merit per brawl. One brawl takes a total of 1 week for all three phases. That means once a week or 600-800 merit per week. One gladiator pack is 2000 merits, so a month of grinding in brawl means 2400 - 3200 merit OR 1 PACK A MONTH.
I have a Katriela Gobson, Earth gladiator that I farmed for 3 months (I didn't bother to join guilds until recently because most of the guilds have weekly DEC donations or else you get kicked. I didn't like being forced.). I have 3 in hand. Since she is a common monster, IF THIS PROPOSAL PASSED, then I have to get at least level 5 Katriela Gobson or else I'd get penalties for using it. Level 5 commons require 60 cards.
TLDR: If I can get lucky getting Katriela Gobson each pack (That is a big IF), you are asking me to grind for 60 months. That's 5 whole -beep- years.
Instead of doing this and using the argument, "for the benefit of new players", then just remove the "Are you not entertained" rule of combat along wtih Conscript.
Because THERE IS NO BENEFIT FOR THE NEW PLAYERS FOR DOING THIS.
This is a one sided rule that only benefits:
The community got me surprised because this is probably the VERY FIRST in my two years of playing that a proposal this bad got me furious. You are trying to get sympathy by using "for the new players" card while the proposal submitted ONLY BENEFITS SOMEONE PLAYING FOR LIKE 4 YEARS.
solid point
New players have zero chance to get gladiators until and unless they join a guild. I am against the idea of forcing people to join, unless they choose to.
Personally, I'm enjoying sucking at brawls as well as hanging with my guild in chat, but I wouldn't have inflicted my crappy win rate on any guild by choice.
Yes Quora et al can be countered if you have enough of the right cards, but then surely the counters can be countered right back at you. I know a significant number of my dispels have been taunted away from the intended target.
Players want to keeps the ability to eat newbs for breakfast in every game there is. But let's at least be honest about it.
Yes Ouora can be countered, for example also from the Goblin Psychic with Affliction - Unfornately the Goblin Psychic get Affliction only at Level 4 and so this counter doesn't work in bronze league.
How many cards have Affliction at bronze level ?
In general I agree, but:
"Players will farm more useless cards. Will you play a 6 mana cost summoner with no abilities? (soulbound so it cannot be traded or sold)"
Here you oversee somthing - this summoner have abilities besider conscript as they have +1 speed, -1 speed, +1 life, -1 life , +1 armor, -2 armoer also, but you are right that this isn't worth 6 Mana, I consider them as a 3-Mana-Summoner without conscript so you "pay" the double price 6 instead of 3 Mana - I have already pointed it out but without any answer from the post creator.
I have also addressed this before in the discord, so again the DAO just burn 100k DEC for nothing.
I miss the extra abilities since those effects are technically negligible. I apologize for that.
I was surprised though that this was now disagreed because it's too advantageous to whales farming in Bronze and silver leaderboards. I might've overreacted though thinking the voting system was controlled by whales.
In the end it is not conrolled cause 66.67% from the staked SPS is really a lot, but when you consider that normally only 30%-40% of the staked SPS really vote and that not need "only" 33,34% to "block" a proposal at least to block proposals is quite imiginable when some whales work together.
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I mean, if I have level 3 Quora or level 5 Katriela Gobson, playing in Gold as my main league, why wouldn't I say yes? It would gatekeep all the newer players from using their gladiator cards until they have at least level 2 in order to contend. It would give my opponents a huge demerit since I can freely use my gladiators since I am not affected having a level 3 legendary, while the players who just started doing brawls won't use the gladiators because they would incur a reward penalty for using a level 1 legendary.
I, as someone who has almost complete collection, wouldn't be affected giving me a high advantage against my opponents so why wouldn't I vote for this?
People who played this game 3 or 4 years ago are so lucky.
this completely favours bot farms in the lower leagues. I don´t think that people that play manually would be lazy about playing brawls wich are the most rewarding in terms of effort.(especially for new players and lower leagues). Any new player can start being competitibe by earning reward cards that allow them to play the cards earned through brawls.
When the reward set came out, for me it was obvious that it meant to incentivize players to join clans and play brawls. How can it be a bad thing for the game? These cards are not monetized ever and they only contribute to a better, more complete experience.
Or you could just set it back to only be used in guild battles again like they should have been in the first place.
Great idea.
It is also frustrating when you lose to an account that does have strong Bronze cards but has access to strong Gladiator exploiting it.
You can join the guild I'm in, Splintersbane, if you want. There's currently a lot of inactive players so there's a lot of slots for brawl. You can get your slot every week and slowly grind for gladiator cards.
There's also no mandatory donations. If you want, you can but it's not a requirement.
What's in it for me? Simple. The more players in the guild plays brawl, the higher the rewards for everyone. If you can be active in brawl, that would be much appreciated.
Thanks.
I will have look :-)
Sure! Let's restrict gladiator cards because they require effort, persistence and play to get them but nobody talked about legendary summoners when the win condition was even higher. Why ? because you could get them with money, right ? As far as I know this game is a Play to Earn instead of a Pay to Win. Think about it.
don't worry, you don't earn anything with this game anymore 😃
https://peakd.com/hive-13323/@bronko/the-left-hand-does-not-know-what-the-right-hand-is-doing
100k dec thrown in the toilet for that proposal
I feel like this is a bit of an arbitrary and hacky solution to the problem. There are better solutions to improve Bronze experience than putting arbitrary restrictions in place, e.g.: