How many Chaos Legion should there be? (LONG ANSWER)

avatar

It's a very interesting question and I'm gonna try to tackle it in a few ways.
I think Splinterlands has a good track record making some pretty good decisions so I look forward and trust they'll choose a good option for their old users, new users, funding needs and economics in general.

image.png

Untamed was 1.5 million packs and lasted just over a year.

  • We had well below 5k active players during almost that entire time
  • In fact pack sales ended with active player count somewhere around 5k active players and started way lower.
  • We didn't have a rental market system giving incentive to buyers to buy and rent out.
  • Expected value of cards was below the $2 for almost that entire time.
  • It was even below the value of the 2000 DEC given a lower than 1000:1 dec par value
  • Value of DEC rewards to players were much lower than they are today
  • All these sales happened during a BEAR market for crypto.
  • There was little to know marketing and PR during that entire time.

Now we have these things to consider we will likely be commencing sales with active player count starting perhaps at 100k if not higher.

  • Rewards are much higher and incentive to play is higher
  • Rental revenue is higher and incentive to buy and rent large stacks are higher
  • Over all wealth of people interested in splinterlands is increased many many fold. We have people who have 5-6 figures ready to invest into cards by next month.
  • We have tons more incidental marketing and paid for marketing. We have way more videos and how to guides as well.
  • SPS earnings for brawls and ladder play make it so people earning a living playing is on the table and that seems to bring in tons more people.

image.png
There were ways to get those cards for less than $1.50 back in the day now they are worth at least $15 a pack just in the value of cards inside without using potions on them.

THE BIG QUESTION
How long does splinterlands want these cards to last? Do they want them to sell out in 1 week or 1 year. I have heard the owners say they want it to last 1 year... not sure if that's still the case but let's assume.

METHOD ONE - Look back at history and multiply

Just treat it like a math equation. We will likely have 20x more users at the start of this edition than the last edition. So maybe it's as easy as that. 1.5 million x 20 = 30 million packs.
Maybe
However all those same reasons I listed above come into the equation. More wealthy players because of their SPS earnings. More new big investors. A huge portion of cards having new utility with rentals.
But on the other hand a much much bigger proportion of players vs whale like investors... meaning the power of those whales is bigger to buy but whales make a much much much smaller portion of the total daily active users.
I'm not sure which side of that argument wins out... maybe they balance eachother out and the answer really is 30 million packs.

METHOD TWO - See how many cards they may need

How many packs are needed to get every player a set of chaos legion cards. But how many users will there be by the end of the year. That's another hard question to answer. Let's assume 5x
So how many packs to help 500k players ... well apparently there really isn't enough for our 60k players with what we have now. But let's 10x from 50k players to 500k players. And maybe that means 15 million packs?

Or 500k players each with an average of 80 cards that's 40 million cards or 8 million packs. But then how many do you need to level them up to leagues people like to play in. I guess that you could figure out by seeing what the league distribution is. Or look at CP average per active player and then multiply those numbers... but I don't have that data. We don't know the Collection Power average per player.

But what i could do is 500k players with an average of a BRONZE level deck of 80 monsters.

Commons - 14 bcx
Rares 5 bcx
epics 4 bcx
Legendary 1 bcx
Sub total = 24 bcx
Total = 24 * 80 = 1920bcx

Some people will get more monsters and some way less. But also maxed players who need 80 monsters will need 22x than amount of BCX.

But let's take that and maybe even cut down the number of players and say we are hoping to help about half the expected new players in the first year. 250,000 players * 1920bcx = 480 million cards or 96 million packs. hahahaha that's crazy. So what about 100k players which we can know and easily expect right off the bat. 192 million cards or 38 million packs.

So many variables
There are a ton of things you can do with the equation. For example knowing the average BCX count per active account. Harder to determine active I guess. Also will there be a lot of people who decide to NOT get chaos legion and stick with their untamed? Possibly. There are just soooo many equations to figure out that there is likely a hundred flaws in either of these methods.

METHOD THREE - Variable

So I am actually leaning towards option 3... or at least for this to be a Spark they can use to think outside the box.

Pre-sale should be a huge influx of cards immediately into the market and it can directly relate to SPS that is staked. They can put a cap on those cards or a SPS value that indirectly gives it a cap.

But then if their goal is for the cards to last a year they should just say... "These cards will only be sold for one year"

Method 3A - has issues but maybe sparks some ideas
After presale allow any user account to buy enough CL packs that represent the BCX of their league or above their league.
For example Bronze league with the 84 untamed cards equals exactly 539bcx cards which means like 100 packs. Which is gonna allow at least 10 million packs pretty fast. I think this method is super easy to abuse as people will purchase dozens of new accounts and transfer their cards to another account and play up to bronze league every week or daily.

Method 3B - Weekly allotment based on player number
Make pack sales limited per day. Of course if that's a fixed limit then might as well also have a final total of packs which brings us back to the previous issues.

DO VARIABLE

  • Pack sales limited each week
  • The limit goes up based on a weekly average of users using some easily trackable stat that can recognize how many cards are needed.
  • Sell at $2 but not many people will burn for DEC because there is still scarcity and pack values will almost always be above $2 the whole entire time.
  • Also presale is still separate and a huge chunk of cards. And relate it to SPS

So I think the answer is a flexible limit and here are some of the methods for determining it. So here's a random idea with some random numbers... the concept is not that they should use these numbers exactly but use them as a base line for the idea with their more informed numbers

**One way to determine the weekly pack drop rate. **
Take every active player that week allow them to purchase 4 packs during that week.
To keep giving SPS an incentive to be held put 2 more packs per active player into a pool that gives SPS stakers a proportionate amount of packs to the $ of SPS they stake. This makes staking a LOT really really beneficial. The whales AND the active players are all benefitted.

For example
let's assume 100k active players in a week (that's more than the 60k we have now but should be doable by end of next month).

  • That week all active players get the opportunity to purchase 5 packs... but they don't have to.
  • That's 400k packs sold each week for a year or 20 million total if we stay at 100k users (which is maybe about the right amount for 100k active players maybe a bit much. So maybe it's 3 packs per week)
  • But also keep in mind a pre-sale to SPS stakers which already should make all potential buyers more than happy if they're willing to pay the $2 and also stake a decent amount.
  • Any not sold to players by end of week will go into the pool for SPS stakers for the next week.
  • Pool for stakers goes up by 2 packs per active players as well.
  • So 200k packs per week or an additional 10 million packs.

You can mess with those numbers i suppose. What you're not doing is messing with the PRICE of the packs or making it a rich players only club. You're also inflating the packs specifically based on number of players and if that goes down so does the inflation of packs. My numbers may be a bit high per week maybe even if you cut it in half and say 100k users would end up being 20 million packs by the end of the year that's an incrase of $40 million to the market cap of the cards and that's what splinterlands would raise.

But keeping a limited supply that inflates systematically means the price of everything else won't crash the moment you allow unlimited CL pack purchases. That would in my opinion be really really damaging to every aspect of splinterlands economics... it' would be like a country dumping more money than has ever existed in the history of their 200+ year nation in the course of one month.

Gradual and variable is the way to go. It's fair for new users. They get to buy $2 packs that will almost always be worth than more than $2. And whales will be fighting over SPS to get their hands on the rest of the packs that week and they'll have a consistent reason to keep SPS.

Heck maybe we'll get tens of thousands of new accounts playing just enough to be able to purchase an asset they know they'll be able to sell for more than $2.

EDIT - BETTER NUMBERS

Actually I change my mind. That's way too many packs per week and if player count goes to 200k users that is just too many packs entering the market.

Each bronze level player should be able to buy 1 pack that week. Each silver 2 and up through champion. That's how many are available for their account to purchase so they have extra incentive to actually play the game.
And don't forget unpurchased packs at the end of the week will go to the SPS stakers pool where they'll get to buy a ton. I think that could just be 1 for every active player in general. That means if there are 100k players then there will be 100k packs in the pool and if for example you have 100k sps in the pool right now (with staked pool at 35 milion) that would mean you could purchase 281 packs that week. But people would be clamoring to get SPS so they could buy packs that they believe are worth more than $2.

Also another side benefit is that it gives players a bit of an advantage on owners who don't play (who are already making really good money) and it gets those players some new cards at lower rates and maybe they'll turn into owners renting out cards as well.

The alternative is add packs based on number of NEW users instead of active players.

These are all just ideas to spark some creativity the numbers can change... but the core idea is pretty solid. Gradual drop that is variable based on number of players but LIMITED on length of time.

Recap... let's try that again for the quick recap for @aggroed

  1. 1-2 million packs for pre-sale based on SPS they have to have their total in by end of pre-sale... so it could end up being much lower but they can purchase in proportion to their SPS staked so actual number purchased may be only 1 million if some big stakers don't purchase.
    1b. I would say every 30 sps you stake you get a chance to purchase one pack in presale. With 40 maybe 60 million SPS staked that means 1.3 to 2 million packs IF IF IF people are interested.
  2. Then allow every active player to purchase a pack every week
  3. Allow higher league players purchase 2 or 3 packs... based on league.
  4. Then add 1 pack to a pool for every active player and only SPS stakers can purchase from that pool that week.
  5. Roll over the unpurchased player packs into the staker pool for the next week.
  6. Don't roll over the staker pool if the stakers don't purchase their possible allotment.
  7. Run this for exactly 1 year after the pre-sale
  8. You should have about 1 million packs in pre-sale and then maybe another 10-15 million packs if we continue with 100k active daily users.

Anyway consider this round 1 of brainstorming. I hope it helps... I reserve to not have thought of something and reserve the right to not even like this idea if people refute it.



0
0
0.000
24 comments
avatar

I really like @splinterlands method of long term initial sale, versus some of the other projects that sell in days, hours even minutes. Just seems more fair to all players

0
0
0.000
avatar

Why not limit the number of packs to 2-3 million like before to make the cards more valuable and to not dilute the value of the previous packs too much, or sell the packs at a higher price? But I think @aggroed will make the right decision and find a good balance.

0
0
0.000
avatar
(Edited)

Because there are about 15-30x or more players now than when they did 1.5 million packs. That number of packs would be gone in literally a day by a bunch of whales. I know because I would buy 50k packs probably if it were first come first serve and such a tiny number.

0
0
0.000
avatar

Ok that's a good point, but less packs for a higher price would also be an option. Implementing a smart and fair distribution / pre-sale mechanism is very important, either way.

0
0
0.000
avatar

i think the issue is that if the growth continues with that number of packs new people would not have cards to play :D and it is a game so you need people to have cards to play.
if you sell out in a month you have a problem with no new cards or making new packs. Making new packs in short time is a problem because you need to make it as unique as possible and not f up the game mechanics.

0
0
0.000
avatar

yea, i think 10 - 15 mil is reasonable too

0
0
0.000
avatar

I wish presale would not be conducted on same lines as land presale conducted earlier(r1s2g3)
Your post has been manually curated by @monster-curator Team!

Get instant cashback for every cards purchase on MonsterMarket.io. MonsterMarket shares 60% of the revenue generated, no minimum spending is required. Join MonsterMarket Discord.

Monster-Curator-Monster-Market.png

0
0
0.000
avatar

Awesome thoughts. I do love the way how scarce and special it makes to get booster packs and yet everybody gets access in multiple ways.

0
0
0.000
avatar

$5 or $10 packs is something that needs to be looked at. It will solve many of the potential issues.

0
0
0.000
avatar
(Edited)

If they do $2 packs but do gradual release then the packs may actually be worth $5 but it will be you and me making that. That will make hundreds of thousands of players happy and excited to buy packs. Also amazing pr for splinterlands... they're leaving money on the table... for their players.

0
0
0.000
avatar

The market is speaking to us now. Dice packs are being bought for $21. All card values have moved up and held considerable multiples. Cards are being rented at significant values.

All of that is being accepted and bought into by the new players.

If $2 packs come out, every single player in the game, from those of us who have been here for 3 years, to the players who have been here 3 days, will be in a for a very jarring few days.

All card prices will get nuked, with betas and weak cards losing over 50% of their values as of today, virtually overnight.

Rentals, of almost all cards will lose demand, and rental prices will tumble, some by 75%, maybe more.

Players will now have a way to cheap of a way to max out a deck, by buying 500-1000 packs, and will rent out the few cards they feel are needed, and those cards will hold in sale price and rental price, as everything else nosedives.

This will leave many of the OG's at a loss for what the heck just happened to all of their collection value, as they were so focused on jockeying to make a few extra bucks on the new edition instead of thinking about the very real effects $2 decks will create, while many of the new players who have pushed up the market will be left feeling they have just been duped.

It will hurt moral and collection growth of our current player base.

This game has leveled up, and none of us expected it to happen so fast, but if we take our current situation for-granted, for nostalgia or greed in championing for $2 packs, it will end up costing all of us a significant amount of value that we have right now.

0
0
0.000
avatar

This is a real concern. However if they do limited gradual release they may still be able to charge $2 but the demand may make them still worth $5+ constantly. But unlimited unchecked purchasing will for sure crash the market I really have little doubts about that. A lot hinges on the decision I guess

0
0
0.000
avatar

Whatever value you think there is for you getting $2 packs to flip, the same value will remain at $5 or $10 packs, if not more, because the market will not nosedive/freefall like it will with $2 packs.

A gradual release is not the answer, as you are just begging for thousands of players to get upset and unmotivated which will come with plenty of negative attention and stories....and demand and momentum will be lossed.

We are in beast mode, we should not be making anything more complicated then it should be.

Every single player that owns assets loses if $2 packs come out, and a few people chasing a few thousand dollars in pack markups will lose a few million dollars in their collection values.

0
0
0.000
avatar

Packs will be purchaseable ... people will resale even in the case of Gradual limited $2 packs. The market will raise it to a competitive value probably related to what those cards are valued at for someone who wants to use them in the rental market instead.

Also @yabapmatt and @aggroed have both said they prefer $2 packs... so gradual release is the solution to help not destroy the market. If they decide to go up from $2 that's fine... but I think they can do $2 and let the market decide the value of the cards and leave the difference on the table for their players... that will motivate them to do whatever is needed to get those $2 packs. Play... Stake SPS... get higher in leagues. Talk about a great motivation.

0
0
0.000
avatar

Each bronze level player should be able to buy 1 pack that week. Each silver 2 and up through champion. That's how many are available for their account to purchase so they have extra incentive to actually play the game.

FreeOffbeatAmericanrobin-size_restricted.gif

0
0
0.000
avatar

Yes an incentive to play and get good and level up would be awesome together with incentive to hold sps as well

0
0
0.000
avatar

It is a complex decision. I believe there will be a lot of wealthy speculators.

0
0
0.000
avatar

Maybe they could limit the number of packs a player can buy per day.

0
0
0.000
avatar
(Edited)

I thought about daily but if the lowest whole number is 1 then that means possibly 200k packs a day and 365 days that is 73 million packs and then people would abuse it by making 1000 teams just to be able to buy more than other people then prices crash after a week or two and then no one cares anymore

0
0
0.000
avatar

Well thought out. Lots to consider as Splinterlands continues to grow.

0
0
0.000
avatar

Do you think it would make sense to allow people to buy beyond the limit (whatever the limited number of packs available to buy is) but for a higher price? So if they want to buy more than the limited number of packs available for sell, they can do so at a higher price and the difference from $2 goes to burning SPS. This way if they want to buy more packs faster, they can do it for more money BUT at the same time they help the entire game so nobody should be unhappy.

The biggest ICO was that of EOS ($4 billion) and they sold a certain amount per day for a year and allowed buyers to basically buy it through a daily auction. Maybe some lessons can be learned from that.

0
0
0.000
avatar

Lots for Splinterlands to consider. I am glad that you as an avid player, seller and renter and putting your opinions out there. If they are looking at active players I should start playing!!!

0
0
0.000
avatar

What if they required something like 10 SPS staked per pack so that way 100 packs would require 1000 SPS. That would provide an incentive to stake and also likely increase the secondhand value of the packs. It'd also be hard to just make a bunch of accounts to get around any kind of purchase limitation because of the 4 week unstaking period

0
0
0.000