Robotics, Economics and Ethics
With the constant improvements in automation and robotics, there has been growing discussion around exactly what to do in terms of income and taxation. Because, as a robot arm replaces a human and can work 24-hours a day, ununionized and without salary or holidays - the income that used to go into the economy from a human, goes into the pockets of shareholders instead. This means that the more automated a corporation becomes, the worse it actually gets for the economy as a whole, because distribution of wealth decreases and humans increasingly suffer.
Should a human be valued more or less than a robot?
Ethical dilemma aside, there is currently a Splinterlands Proposal that will try to implement anti-bot measures into the Modern format, to see if it is possible to disrupt the many bot that are dominating the game, farming for the owners. They can't really be called "players" anymore, can they? Essentially, they are the shareholders of the factory that has replaced people with robot arms, maximizing their wealth, even if it is a detriment to the community.
That is my opinion at the moment, at least.
You might disagree and I am open to being wrong. But, I think that once a game only has bots playing it, it is just a farming mechanism, not a game. It is like all those gambling apps that were running millions of daily transactions on EOS. Remember EOS?
The bots might be making money that sweet passive income for those running the bots, but at the end of the day, it is highly unattractive for anyone to actually invest and take part in the game, which means that it whittles away the value down to nothing. Likely, this is okay for many of the early in players who didn't necessarily invest much at all, but have taken quite extreme gains over the last few years - but what about the longevity of the project?
You might still disagree.
However, what is interesting is that the proposal was originally floated to create a new anti-bot league, but @yabapmatt had this to say:
Seems like a plan to me.
And if it works well, there is nothing stopping the Splinterlands Team creating a new league later that is anti-bot, moving Modern back to as it is now. Especially at these economic times and with so many projects ongoing that are looking to add value to the same people who are using the bots, it is better to test with the beds available.
Imagine going to the football to see your favorite team and instead of players on the field, they had a EA Sports FIFA game played computer against computer, broadcast on the bigscreen. would you stay and watch it, would you cheer it on, would you buy a scarf and shirt of your favorite footballer, bot #164566-1337?
I hate playing against bots. I hate losing to them also - which is happening more and more now. But, it isn't just my playing experience that is being impacted, because I think that long term as an investment, bots reduce the value significantly. The reason is that because they are able to maximize earnings, they will also be able to win more record cards, SPS and have more available to invest into things like new packs, and more cards to flesh out their collection. This means that the gap will increasingly grow between the human players and the bot users, creating the same pathetic economy that we have in the world today - one of increasingly poor distribution, where skill no longer matters, the best collection wins.
For a while, this will make some people increasingly wealthy, but what happens once there is no demand to actually buy into Splinterlands because of the value distribution becoming so poor? it gets abandoned, right? People stop trying to compete and instead, go elsewhere to spend their time and money, and there are going to be no shortage of crypto games to choose from in the coming couple years. We have a chance as a community to make this something, yet we are losing that chance because of convenience. Again.
It is just so easy. Set and forget!
Forget we will.
We talk about being participating in crypto and supporting projects to build a better future, but at the end of the day, the majority of "participants" are just like the shareholders of the companies that are maximizing the profits with robots, so that they don't have to put as much into the economy for humans, increasing their own wealth in the process. Complain about the politicians, corporations and bankers...
Act like the politicians, corporations and bankers...
Will we ever learn?
Unlikely it seems, Because at the end of the day, we are far less community minded and far more self-centered than we would like people to believe. We can never have to much and can never have enough. We are insatiable, and unless we are physically stopped from maximizing, we will do just that. When the incentive and mechanisms are in place that allow for maximization behavior, it is folly to believe that enough people will choose to "do the right thing" when it will cost them. We have seen this on Steem, we have seen it on Hive, we are seeing it on Splinterlands. It has to be hardcoded into the system, and it has to be continually reviewed and adjusted, because nothing is perfect and systems will continually be undermined, because that is what people are incentivized to do - take advantage.
But, just because there is an advantage for some now, it shouldn't be assumed that it will always be the case and it will never change. There has to be ways to adjust and shift the advantage, otherwise like all capitalist systems, it will eat itself otherwise. This is a challenge when there is a stake-weighted system of course, especially since the ones that have the largest advantage, are also those with the largest stakes to either promote what maximizes them, or veto what doesn't - even if it is a detriment overall.
Anyway, I am not surprised that people who are using bots don't want anti-bot attempts trialed, but I am a bit disappointed I guess. It reminds me of the changes on Steem in order to curb selfvoting and bidbots - the pushback was strong from those benefiting from it the most. But, until it was coded, the community was largely powerless, because we all work on incentive.
Personally, even if the attempt fails, I believe that making the attempt is worth it, because there is a lot that can be learned in the process that can help all of us later too. The application might be for bots now, but it could lead to more security or perhaps, other economic mechanisms that bring additional value to the ecosystem that benefits us all.
Maybe some decisions should be weighted to those who are thinking about the bigger picture, rather than just having their eyes on maximizing their gains, or having their gains reduced. Very few are going to lose anything in this attempt, but they might have to spend a more time and earn a bit less, if they have to play for themselves.
The daily Focus should be on humans.
Taraz
[ Gen1: Hive ]
I voted no on the proposal. I don't have as big of a stake as some people, but I would like to think I have a pretty decent stake. I just don't like how it feels so thrown together. I want more structure in my proposals. This just feels sloppy. I think more homework should have been done to avoid the cluster this has become. The post has already been edited at least once, I don't know. It just feels sideways to me.
It is a bit thrown together, but I feel it is more about investigating what can be done, rather than having to do all the work first and then making the proposal. I don't know if they know what they would do in detail yet, but I think it should be explored. They won't start exploring it unless there is support though.
I voted yes.
I bought into this game for fun first and foremost.
If I were to pay for the bot service, might as well sell all my stake and invest in something else thats passive, like stacking sats or stocks.
Exactly - and that might be less volatile and isn't subject to the whims of a few.
I agree with you. This is why I have been against everything that has to do with artificial intelligence. Well, it has its own benefit too but the disadvantages are too much and it is really going to tell on us.
A lot of people will become poorer because they can no longer cater to their daily needs. It is crazy but those people who make use of the artificial intelligence will benefit and make more money because they will not need to pay salary to the bot and the bot won't go on holiday as you have mentioned earlier.
People are already getting poorer, as most favor being entertained over creating a better life for themselves.
If you asked this to a company owner, the answer would probably be "less" because it is no-holds-barred for their profit maximization.
Yep. People to look up to!
I believe that we all want to live in a strong and valuable community, but I don't think that most of us act in a way that builds them.
Self-interest always comes first.
As it should - but if immediate self-interest is going to cost more down the road than the gain now, what is actually in self-interest?
It might be a hinder against bulding a community in fact.
I really hope they cancel out the bots 😂 perhaps that is why I suck at the game.. But it doesn't seem like the voting is going in my favour 😂
At the moment, it looks lie the proposal is going to fail unfortunately.
!1UP Great analysis of this proposal.
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Games which are dominated by bots are doomed to failure. If I wanted to play against NPCs, I would have played a sandbox game offline. There is a huge reason why all those AAA game titles have taken such a harsh stance against all bots. Simply put, it negatively affects the game's popularity and hence bottom line.
Exactly. And, once online gaming started, I never played against bots again. A community of bots isn't a community.
Do you think this AI and Robotics slowly would get into the phase where there would be artificial birth system that would not require couples coliving for having child or raising child? I kind of getting that feeling, it's like machines farming humans. Do you think we are pushing the tech towards that world?
Probably. Looking at the birth rates, people will still be needed for some time, but there won't be enough being born, so they will get creative and grow them instead.
Much of what you say is true, but I personally believe that robotics has a lot to contribute to humanity. There is a saying that says "All extremes are bad", we cannot stop doing things thinking of the worst. Will robotics eliminate jobs? Yes, but it will bring others with it, others that will demand more knowledge and preparation from us. I am one of those who have faith that humanity, hand in hand with robotics, has the potential to improve life on earth and beyond.
Do you have the skills to code top-level AI?
Right now no 😅
Neither do 99% of the world and about 98% of the world have no chance to be able to, because they just don't have the right kind of brains for it. AI will create jobs, but many of them will be doing things that few people can do. The others will be manual labor.
It's true that currently, there are few people who can create a powerful AI on their own, which is why teamwork is essential. However, even working in a team, it remains a difficult task. The main problem is that we are still analyzing the future of robotics or AI from the perspective of our current knowledge. Let's take the example of ChatGPT. Many people would have never thought they could create an AI-based application, but the exponential growth of this technology has been incredible. Nowadays, it's not necessary to create an AI from scratch, as existing ones are accessible and can be used in a variety of projects, and the best part is that it's not difficult.
I only play in wild format. I like the possibility of using all my cards. But this seems like a step in right direction.
Wild is wild, so perhaps having bots there is okay. Modern is the place where there can be more experiments, because you know, change is required to remain modern :)
I agree with many points, from the bot role in the games (that becomes actually a mere farming) to the fact that we are more and more self-centered. We are interacting through computers and less physical/offline interactions are leading to a lack of self-development that is connected to human relationships.
People can hide their activity so much now, which means there is "no face to hit" - in the past, there was social consequence that barely exists now.
Thanks for sharing! - @azircon
Thank you :)
This is tight voting. It was always expected to be tight, as there are a lot of extractors voting against this. They are care about their pocketbook and not the best for the game.
It is usually the same folks that vote against anything good for the human player or even economy
I still think we can pull it though.
we are currently 8M vote short; @Vugtis alone is 9M. @bravetofu can provide the 4M buffer for contigencies
And this is the problem, because they are looking short. Destroy the economy for human players, and value will dwindle to nothing. I really hope it goes through, because I believe there is a lot of value in trialing these things, even if they are imperfect.
Just put in my vote. Hope we can get this through for the good of humans.
As always highly appreciated my friend
Nice one :)
My personal opinion on this subject: ( Beware : limited empathy )
+ ➕ impact from banning 🤖
Greater emphasis on player skill: With AI banned from gaming, players would have to rely solely on their own skill and strategy to succeed. This could create a more level playing field, where success is determined by player talent rather than access to technology. Skilled player dominates vs weak player demotivate ( ever wonder why your win rate is above 40% ?)
More social interaction: Without AI assistants, players would have to rely on each other for help and support. This could create a more social and collaborative gaming environment, where players work together to overcome challenges and achieve success. ( Either you involve in guild/union/cooperation or be solo like kirito )
Increased immersion: AI assistants can sometimes detract from the immersive experience of the game, as players may feel less connected to their in-game actions. Banning AI could help players feel more immersed in the game, as they would be fully engaged in every aspect of the gameplay. i.e spent more time in mav chat update or weekly townhall, otherwise you missed out. ( too bad for those only can spend 1 hour per day or lesss cause of other obligation )
Greater challenge: Without AI to automate certain tasks, players may find the game more challenging overall. This could increase the sense of accomplishment and satisfaction that players feel when they succeed, as they would have overcome greater obstacles to reach their goals. ( I guess it's an accomplishment logging in multiple account manually to claim rewards and play within 1 hour per day before lunch break is over )
- ➖ impact from banning 🤖
Slower overall progress in the game: Without AI, players would have to complete tasks manually, which could take significantly longer. This could result in a slower overall progress in the game, as players would spend more time on repetitive tasks such as reward claim and gmae play. ( From a usual 1-2 min matching opponent, possibility even longer as higher rank has less people . If your lower rank than should have no issue cause majority will be there)
Limited accessibility: Players who are unable to dedicate large amounts of time to gaming may find it difficult to keep up with other players who are using AI assistants. This could result in a less inclusive gaming environment, where only those who have a lot of time to spare are able to excel. ( Ever wonder why RPG players gets their dopamine in brain much slower vs FPS player ?)
Reduced earning potential: AI assistants can be used to automate resource gathering and other tasks, which can help players earn in-game currency more quickly. Without AI, players would have to spend more time on these tasks, which could reduce their overall earning potential. ( because I only have 1 hour per day to play, how much game you think I can get once AI bans? 20 game in 1 hour at current is sorta possible without any distraction )
Disruption of the gaming economy: As AI assistants become more common in the gaming economy, their absence could disrupt the balance of the game. This could result in inflation or other unintended consequences, as players are forced to adapt to a new gaming environment. ( AI sometimes uses cards that you didn't know exist or could possibly work but once AI is gone, my only reference of good card usage will rely on top player streamer. Whatever they use in battle, I will have the urge to get them caused I don't wana FOMO )
Less innovation: AI has the potential to enable new forms of gaming experiences and innovation in game design. Banning AI from gaming could stifle this innovation and limit the potential for future growth and development in the gaming industry. ( It will be awesome to see the dominance of KITTY / LAMACRON again before AI was heavily used.. )
*Thank you for reading from a bot generated comment. *
I didn't read this.
You know, for the time it existed, I rather enjoyed the rotating daily challenge and having to win 5 battles to earn the daily chests. With the new streamlined daily focus and 24 battles each day, things are a bit more monotonous since the daily focus is not really that relevant anymore. I attempt to manually play my 24 daily ranked battles when I can, but when time gets tight and the responsibilities pile up I'd still rather have a bot running than rent out all my cards for value. In fact, I think if I did the math, I would probably still earn more by renting my cards than having them botted each season.
What keeps me coming back though, are the brawls and tournaments, two game modes that I LOVE playing by hand for the sake of the competition. When I am manually playing and I battle someone I'm familiar with, I will try to shoot them a message to see if it was really them playing live. Sadly, more often than not, you are right and it is a bot playing. But I am encouraged by the effort to limit bots in modern. This would definitely encourage me to pick up playing modern again manually and then let the bots battle it out in wild.
What started me down the path of botting in the first place was just trying to keep up and take advantage of those 24 daily battles. With those changes nearly a year ago now, they really reinforced the point that you were leaving value on the table if you didn't take advantage of all 24 battles each day. I try to carve out time every day, but sometimes that time is directed solely to brawls and tournaments, and writing Splinterlands content, and researching cards, and looking for deals. There is just so much to do within the ecosystem, that I feel the ranked play bots allow me to keep up with the competition so I'm not missing any value. But I do miss the chats and comments when playing a human v human battle, and that is becoming too few and far between. I'm looking forward to more human formats, if we have the technology to do it without being plagued by bad actors.
Fingers Crossed!
And it doesn't matter what it is, does it? Seems to credit regardless.
I think so. And if it continues as it is, I will rent my cards out, wait til a pump and sell them - because I am not enjoying playing that much at the moment.
This is what kills the community aspect of it. It annoyed me in the discord in the bragging channel, when it was just bots. Can't send a message and get a response - they aren't even there. I stopped trying.
I think this is where Azir would say - get a jockey/pilot or whatever he calls them! :D
Azir calls them scholars, but there are only so many good players to go around. NFTy arcade serves as a middle man to find scholars for your collection, but I have not tried that yet.
I do really miss all the trash talking, that was fun. But the rivalries I have now in brawl I think are even more enjoyable.
As for the ranked battle focuses, it allows you to earn larger rShares for your chest when you meet the conditions, but the bots are so finely tuned, that you really can't even afford to try to play to your focus anymore, because any suboptimal lineup will be punished.