SPS Governance Proposal - Don't Change PP Values
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Purpose
The purpose of this proposal is to address a recent announcement made by @yabapmatt that the team was planning to adjust the PP (land production points) of cards to match Chaos Legion once the sets rotate out of modern. There has been occasional speculation about this for quite some time, since the Rebellion PP numbers were initially announced, but some community members feel that this adjustment is not needed, and there hasn't been clarity on the point until now. This proposal will determine if we'd like to stop the team from making that change and essentially maintain the baseline PP at 0.5x Chaos Legion card's PP value going forward.
Proposal
If this proposal passes, the community would formally request that the PP values of cards do not change when rotating out of the Modern format. All future sets should operate with a base PP (production points) multiplier of 0.5x the baseline value established with the Chaos Legion set. It will be assumed no changes need to be made in regards to PP values going forward unless another proposal is passed to change these guidelines.
Edit:
Since we're getting some confusion, to make it absolutely clear:
If you want things to stay as they are then you'd vote "yes" as that is saying "don't change anything."
If you want it to change to where all cards move up to the same PP level as Chaos Legion when they leave modern, then vote "no" as that is saying to follow the plan per Matt.
I was excited about losing the penalty, I was gonna buy rebellion cards now to keep for land.
Now, I guess I will not have a reason to.
I would love an idea to keep the value up in cards being rotated out, even if we don't want them on land. Maybe we can craft a PP boost by burning so many copies of the card that would give it a permanent status upgrade.
I honestly hope this fails, but if not, I hope we are given a reason to buy rotating out cards.
Adjusting the PP is the slippery slope and for me it would undermine the trust in the game. The Rebellion cards have a lot of play value and even 50% of the PP is good for land, especially if we manage to grow the community.
We will not grow the community if we keep undermining the value of assets and making them unusable and completely obsolete after two years of use. That's not an alluring perspective for newer players coming into the game and building a collection.
I feel the same as you @discovery17 This could be something that would force me out the game. It's too big a change for me to deal with
Seriously? You would leave if rotating cards received the same PP as Chaos Legion? It should have a negligible effect on land since there are tons more supply of Chaos Legion than any of the rotating modern sets.
I'm truly sittng here trying to understand why this is such a big, dramatic change that would push someone out of the game. From my point of view, this is an essential update to maintain a shred of value for non-meta cards as they rotate from modern.
If rotated modern cards continue to provide PP that is only half of CL cards, then it will crater the value of those cards when they rotate. It creates a HUGE DISADVANTAGE for modern card ownership as prices will tank after rotation.
It should stand to reason that Chaos Legion cards will remain the cheaper option compared to the rotating modern sets since there are multiples more CL cards than any of the rotated modern sets. Without the ability for rotating modern cards to be used on land, then I fear there will be even less demand for new modern cards and more potential losses for long-term collectors and competitive modern players.
Please make it make sense. You would leave because you think it doesn't make sense? You would leave because you don't want modern cards to maintain their value? I'm truly confused.
I think I totally misunderstood the proposal. I thought this was saying the PP would drop once rotating out of modern. I don't understand why the pp is being changed at all. I'll delete my original comment after you've read this @ducecrypto ahhh I can't delete it now, just pretend it's not there. I do appreciate your time on the response
All good mate. The point is not even to keep the modern PP where it is, but to revert it back to the same threshhold as Chaos Legion once it rotates from Modern. This proposal was trying to prevent that. Instead of cutting in half, we are trying to double it when it leaves modern.
Some people are making the point that most people have more value with modern cards in ranked than on land anyways, so maybe at this point with our new pack sales mechanic, we should just have all cards Chaos Legion to the present ALL be worth 1x PP.
yeah I get it now. It was the first I'd heard of changing card PP and I am okay with the proposal. While I do think going forward it is better to just set the PP to whatever level we agree on and then don't change it if possible.
Like I wrote before on Discord: “I can understand the PP remaining at 0.5 for CA and further, as the current and future sets have the Black foils for higher pp on land, but I cannot understand the rationale for Rebellion to remain at 0.5, something which will make it almost unusable on land after it phases out of Modern.”
Especially when it had been previously suggested by the team that all post-CL sets would have their pp unnerfed when they rotated out of Modern.
I’m voting against this proposal.
Fully agree. I'm also against this proposal!
Voting for the proposal - so against the change to PP values - because of precedent of inflationary pressure.
With that said, if they decide to increase the 0.5x for cards after modern, they might as well just eliminate the 0.5x modifier while it’s in modern anyways.
Card values in modern aren’t dependent on production power - putting modern cards on land has plenty of opportunity cost. Eliminating the 0.5x modern adjustment will take out a little bit of the bad complexity without losing the good kind of complexity (aka strategy).
Land is already complicated enough, adding a “ideal time to redeploy your land assets” isn’t the fun kind of strategy.
edit:
The idea was originally that they'd move up after rotating out of modern. Matt reaffirmed the stance and made it clear on the recent town hall. It was basically said "this is what we're doing unless you pass a proposal to tell us not to do it." Some people are upset about it, so we got a proposal to hopefully settle it. If someone wants to run a different proposal, that's okay too.
To make it absolutely clear:
If you want things to stay as they are then you'd vote "yes" as that is saying "don't change anything."
If you want it to change to where all cards move up to the same PP level as Chaos Legion when they leave modern, then vote "no" as that is saying to follow the plan per Matt.
after relooking at this, i didn't have my facts straight. Thought rebellion was already out of modern and PP should have already changed if that's what was planned.
Question: If PP does change do Black foil leg become 50k PP?
also; maybe make this a little clearer
ie at bottom of proposal
vote NO if...
Vote YES if...
thanks Clay
I added it, we'll see if that helps.
Is there info on CA Black Foils? Will their PP eventually double as well? (I hope not but we need some clear guidance on that)
i think the they should have settled at the base PP to be the same as Chaos long before the cards were launched. now they are trying to make the rebellion stay expensive, this would also drive down more the prices of chaos in my view. I also think we need clarity on the future sets before that is done. like the current and future sets will also be treated the same ?
Just to clarify a few things:
I'm running the proposal on behalf of Cryptomancer, he paid for it and approved it as written.
As to why:
For me personally:
I don't think this issue is worth fighting over. I don't feel strongly about it at all either way. I'm just running the proposal because several community members seemed to want it and it was paid for, so here it is.
Hopefully it'll put the issue to rest, if not someone else can run their own proposal or reach out and discuss it with me if they need help or something.
Here's the major issue at hand:
You have a complex topic, with a ton of moving parts. The team, I'm sure, has spreadsheets flowcharts and everything else to keep track of what was said and when/where...
It is highly evident that despite what the team may have said or insinuated... that a lot of people believed that Rebellion Cards and beyond would have .5PP compared to CL post rotation.
For me personally, I believed this to be the case and don't remember ever hearing they would bump up post Rotation... In fact, I distinctly remember the opposite being said and that was a "Reason to stock on up on CL!! They're about to be OOP and every set going forward will be .5PP or reduced further to keep CL Value!!"
However, instead of arguing about what was/wasn't said... I am fully in support of the community making this decision together.
Pros:
Helps keep RB Value Post Rotation
Helps RB Owners
Cons:
Dilutes Land PP
Makes CL Cards worth a little less as Land Workers
Reality:
The original reason behind the PP Nerf was because everyone was worried about the PP dilution from sets like Chaos Legion - "In the future these cards will be worthless because there will be too much PP"!!
But check the data:
Avg CL GFL CC: ~ 1,500
Avg RB GFL CC: < 200
Honestly to me after reconsidering this issue and the implication... the team is saying this was something they were always planning to do, some of the community say they remember otherwise - I'd love to see some evidence pointing either way @clayboyn
However, in the end, here's what matters:
A. If the team DID state this somewhere and we have evidence that PP would bump post rotation - we should bump PP
It doesn't affect Land Production much and it was always "the plan" - I may have misheard, misremembered things... I'm human, this happens.
B. If the team DID NOT state this somewhere and we DO NOT have evidence that PP would bump post rotation - we should not bump PP
Gameplay wise - bumping PP for RB will have a negligible effect on Land PP, especially with the sets being DRASTICALLY SMALLER than CL.
IF we do go the "Remove .5PP Post Rotation", we should just get rid of it altogether because with BF and Land Cards the majority of cards aren't going to be efficient on land anyway.
I've got full CL, RB and CA collections so... ADJUST THAT PP, HELL YEAH! Trololo. In reality - I don't care. Do what you think is best ;-)
The thing for me is when they launched BF with CA they stated they will give 5x bonus on land.
Well because of the set has 0.5x it actually is only 2.5x bonus and I find that oke as in my mind after a year or two they will be boosted to what was intended for land. Another reason to hold them.
For the rest I do not really have a strong opinion in this matter, i will adapt no matter what is decided.
Only all newer set will always have a penalty i do not like they always have a "penalty"
Sorry I don't understand this:
"The purpose of this proposal is to address a recent announcement made by @yabapmatt that the team was planning to adjust the PP (land production points) of cards to match Chaos Legion once the sets rotate out of modern. "
IMO Chaos Legion is since a long time out of modern or why I am unable to use this cards in modern tournaments or modern ranked ?
This only relates to the production points on land of cards when they rotate out of modern. It doesn't really have anything to do with the Modern format beyond that. For instance, currently when Rebellion leaves Modern format, the idea is they'll have twice as much production points on land as they do right now.
If you want that to happen, vote no on the proposal and nothing changes.
If you do not want anything to change and just stay like it is in relation to the production points, then you'd vote yes and want this proposal to pass.
You write: "to match Chaos Legion once the sets rotate out of modern."
But Chaos Legion is since a long time out of modern, since the CA release !
Maybe you want speak from Rebellion but than you should write Rebellion and not Chaos Legion.
The idea is that Chaos Legion production points is the "base line."
Rebellion is currently half of Chaos Legion as well as Conclave Arcana.
The team announced in the Town Hall that when a set rotates out of Modern, the production points will increase and move up to match Chaos Legion.
So as of right now, if nothing changes...
When Rebellion rotates out of Modern, the production points will equal Chaos Legion.
When Conclave Arcana rotates out of modern, the production points will equal Chaos Legion.
It's basically saying "that's the lowest amount of production points for land that a wild card will have.
"This proposal will determine if we'd like to stop the team from making that change and essentially maintain the baseline PP at 0.5x Chaos Legion card's PP value going forward."
IMO the baseline PP of Chaos Legion card's is x1 - when it was changed to x0,5 ?
It wasn't changed. Rebellion and Conclave Arcana are 0.5x.
I am completely against this proposal. I think it is vitally important that, as cards rotate from modern, they have equal PP to Chaos Legion. Without removing the 0.5x penalty, it is conceivable that rotated modern cards will drop to valuations even LOWER than Chaos Legion since CL would always be preferred to rotated modern cards for double the PP. It would be disastrous for rotated modern cards to drop to market prices below CL and destroy their long-term value.
Not only is my vote a huge NO, I can only imagine the people who would want to vote YES for this proposal don't care about maintaining the value of modern cards.
is this going to apply to all the sets that follow is my question.
It should in my opinion. There's enough demand for modern cards with a limited supply that I think it would be safe to make all cards from Chaos Legion to the present to be worth 1x. Our new pack sales mechanic has worked well for the past few modern sets.
In my opinion, the fact that the Modern cards get a 50% nerf on their PP is a strong indicator that the plan was always to eliminate that nerf when they rotated out of Modern. Otherwise, the new Modern sets would have always been at 1 and the previous sets would have had bigger multipliers (Chaos=2xPP, Untamed=4xPP, etc). I was always under the impression that this would be the case.
If the team has been building and doing all of their calculations with this as their baseline, I don't think it would be a good idea to change the original plan.
As others have stated, if each new set continues to have discounted PP, then the future value of owning those cards after they leave Modern is basically nil. Other than a handful of meta cards, most of those cards will be worthless for anything other than burning once they leave Modern.
I don't see any reason to make Chaos Legion more valuable than successive sets. Especially considering there are literally still hundreds of thousands of Chaos Legion cards to burn through. Stick with the plan.
This would kill the value of cards even more. We charge way too much from the shop as is, then watch value plummet during the lifespan in modern... then complain that value is not maintained (an impossibility). This would make a bad situation even worse. FFS.
Why on earth would anyone be OPPOSED to giving a modicum of actual utility value to rotating SPL assets? Esp in a way that does not affect the older editions? Regular foil CL cards are almost useless on land as-is when you factor in the production inefficiency... you need GFs to make it worth the DEC to even put them on land. A x .05 multiplier makes those newer RF cards absolutely useless on land. Maintaining a 1x floor for rotating cards is basically tossing players a few crumbs and a little less sand in the vaseline.
My understanding was always that modern cards have the penalty and cards no longer playable in modern don't. Otherwise modern cards are just second rate cards that will absolutely crash in value (not just monetary value) when they rotate out.
Also I would really recommend no negative logic in proposals. I mean it had to be clarified in the edit because it is weird to vote against a proposal not to have a change. ;)
Going forward, would removing the 0.5x penalty also apply to the CA Black Foil cards, effectively making legendaries 50,000 PP? If that is the case, the move basically devalues the GFL Alpha and Beta (and Untaimed)... That would be a TERRIBLE move...