SPS Proposal: Give Summoners a 3X Production Point Bonus when assigned to work on land
f15664726721987ce0dad46b6bd8535d27b1b88e
Proposal Payment Transaction and Transaction Link
https://hiveblocks.com/tx/f15664726721987ce0dad46b6bd8535d27b1b88e
Proposal
The SPS DAO requests the Splinterlands company modify the Land Phase 1.5 Whitepaper such that only one Summoner card may be assigned as a worker on each land plot, and that Summoner cards receive a 3X multiplier to their base production rate.
This means that a max-level regular foil Legendary Chaos Legion Summoner would produce 4,500 PP / hour vs 1,500 PP / hour for a similar Monster card, and an 11 BCX gold foil Rare Beta Summoner would produce 30,000 PP / hour (4000 PP max level gold Rare * 11/22 BCX * 5X Beta multiplier * 3X Summoner multiplier).
Purpose
While nothing is final until it has been written in a whitepaper, Summoners were often referenced during Town Halls and other discussions as being valuable for land. The current Land 1.5 Whitepaper doesn't include any bonuses for summoners. The team stated leaving Summoners out of the Land 1.5 Whitepaper was intentional to make sure that as many BCX of cards as possible could be staked on land without Summoners creating an arbitrary gate.
Giving Summoners an extra Production Points bonus still rewards staking as many BCX as possible on land while also providing additional bonuses for Summoner cards.
Execution
If this proposal succeeds, the Splinterlands company will adjust the Production Points section of the Land 1.5 Whitepaper to make it so only one Summoner can be assigned as a worker to each land plot and that Summoners will get a 3X multiplier to their base Production Points.
This means that a max-level regular foil Legendary Chaos Legion Summoner would produce 4,500 PP / hour vs 1,500 PP / hour for a similar Monster card, and an 11 BCX gold foil Rare Beta Summoner would produce 30,000 PP / hour (4000 PP max level gold Rare * 11/22 BCX * 5X Beta multiplier * 3X Summoner multiplier).
This proposal does not in any way preclude the company from changing or implementing new use cases for Summoners when Land 2.0 is released.
Background
While Game Mechanics are outside the purview of the DAO, more complex proposals involving allocating increased SPS rewards for land based on Summoner usage would potentially require more development time and slow down the overall delivery of Land 1.5. In speaking with @yabapmatt, the Council learned that implementing something like the above proposal would require minimal additional development work while accomplishing the primary goal of giving value to Summoners.
The Council selected a 3x Multiplier because of the current Production Points per Dollar value of Summoners vs Monster Cards. At the time of writing, the most cost effective Summoner card is about 40 Production Points per Dollar (PP/$) and the most cost effective Monster card is 200 PP/$. A 3X multiplier gives some additional value to Summoners with respect to their cost, but does not make them especially valuable as compared to Monster cards. The Council believes this ratio gives enough additional value to Summoners that more may be staked on land without making them so desirable for land that there is a shortage of Summoners in battle.
Conclusion
Summoners are an integral part of gameplay in the Splinterlands and we believe this should be true for both Land and traditional battles in the form of Ranked, Brawls and Tournaments. This proposal helps ensure that Summoners maintain their significance in all aspects of game play.
Thank you for participating in SPS DAO Governance @spl.council!
You can place or monitor SPS Stake Weighted votes for and against this proposal at the link below:
Link to this Pre-Proposal
Updated At: 2023-03-29 14:41 UTC
Rich accounts already have a massive advantage over everyone else with huge bonuses in other areas. Why widen that gap with yet another bonus multiplier.
Id rather reduce the insane bonuses that exist, not add more of them.
I don't think that we can justify a production point boost based on the market value of cards. I say this as an individual that has quite a few excess summoners. They're cards. No different from others. Land is meant to hoover up those cards with less utility.
I think this proposal would have the opposite effect, and have a negative impact on new players who want summoners to ... you know, play the game, and something like this would just increase the barriers to entry.
My vote will likely be a no, I am glad you seem to have the same opinion.
Agreed. Im a big no on this.
I think Gank & Gene should meet up and fight.
I don't think they need to do anything dramatic like a fight.
Differing opinions are good for the community, it allows progress.
Whether people like this particular proposal or not, the point of submitting it is to give a "voice" to the community. There were many players that felt Summoners should have extra value. Conversely, there are players that don't agree.
The great thing is you get a voice.
Sometimes bringing a proposal can give a resolution to a debate. In other words, lets settle this by voting and realize that we as a community have a say in how this ecosystem is built.
Remember we all don't have the same views on everything, but if we can respect the will of the community, we all benefit together. We are "light years" ahead of most projects with our DAO, that's something to be valued.
I personally feel this proposal is great because it will end the conflict over the summoners by letting the community decide.
Disclosure since I'm on the council:
I will vote ONLY my personal account in favor of it (which is the smaller of my top accounts). My main reason for agreeing to this proposal was to let the community decide on the topic, so that we can get it resolved by the community and move forward.
Well said, dave :)
Heh - I said something similar in my comment here: https://peakd.com/spsproposal/@azircon/re-splcouncil-rrxw7n
Well said @davemccoy
Summoners are needed by every player to, you know - engage in battle.
The cost of a card on the market should not influence the production potential that it may have on land.
Land is intended to give utility to cards that have little or none in battle.
By proposing that summoners boost production we are negatively impacting on a number of things including:
Did anyone do any serious data analysis on this proposal to see just how many summoners would be available for battles if each and every plot owner went and obtained a max summoner for their land plots?
Please do, and then reconsider your idea. I've done this on my Splinterlands.TV live streams in the past.
I'm voting no to this proposal.
To the Point!!
Someone could probably still write a TLDR :D
The proposal is good but I thing it overall discourages use of other cards. Summoners already have great utility as they are needed to do battles. Limiting amount of summoners available for battling or gameplay will make it harder to get summoners, especially for new player experience.
Who ever joins would have to pay higher price, not only that, this would disincentivize cards/monsters staking as Summoners give maximum benefit. Leaves more card in open market which can't be used as no summoners available.
This only helps people who bought a lot of summoners in speculation for bonus. I'd vote for overall community than certain people who have gathered a lot of summoners in advance to make some money.
10 or 20% boost may make sense, not 2x or 3x
Summoners are already priced higher and it's going to kill market liquidity for summoners as they would be worth a lot more, so not enough for anyone who joins the game today.
Summoners are already priced higher and it's going to kill market liquidity for summoners as they would be worth a lot more, so not enough for anyone who joins the game today.
No offense though, I'd be going against this one.
This is exactly how I try to vote for each and every proposal.
I am Voting in Favour for the Summoner Proposal as I think there should be a boost to Summeners on Land (one per Plot) 3X boost may be a bit excessive 1.5X boost is enough.
I really wanted to see a food consumption reduction bonus from summoners on land as that fits in the lore. I feel that is far better implementation. I will vote no.
I'm hoping the 3x multiplier is enough to kill this proposal. People who stockpiled summoners in advance of the land whitepaper get their vote here, but I fail to see how this benefits the broader community by making the summoner bottleneck substantially worse.
We need some whales to vote against their self interest and FOR the long term health/sustainability of the game. Please consider the long term and not just "I want my cards to go up, ecosystem be damned."
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3x is probably too much for my liking 2x or 1.5x might get me to vote on it.
maybe something fun like: ability for it to summon another card that gets half PP (but limited to the PP of the summoner itself) but i worry that could be extra work probably mostly for UX team to fit in the 6th or possibly 7th card.
Just to give an example there are lots of people with GFL beta summoners that would jump their value from 50k PP to 150k PP... I think that would be likely game breaking. The alphas aren't as big of a deal since there is only one of them and very few people who have a maxxed version. But quite a few of us that have the various maxxed beta summoners.
150k * 4.5 bonus multiplier would just be really really crazy
I think once we come out with our next PP feature people will understand what happens with some of these multipliers
I think your PP values displayed on your site is great. Definitely a help in getting people to understand what cards they will want to use.
I instead summoners get a 20% or 25% RP bonus in Rank Battle, instead of doing this for LAND.
Each battle already requires one summoner in RANK.
Underpower (low-level) summoners already will limit the max card level you can play in RANK.
Giving a bonus in the RANK battle will help drive the value of all Summoners.
The land is better suited for cards not used in rank battles anymore.
The game should be around the playable deck and not around LAND.
Can this be changed to 2x, or does it need another 100k DEC? I bought LOTS of summoners in preparation so am far from happy they don't factor in after being told otherwise for months by the SPL team. What do the DICE buyers do with all their Vera's doing nothing?
I will vote for this, but 2x will have a better chance of getting it passed.
3x might be better at 2x.
Personally, I think summoners should be factored in. While they are in short supply now, there are new card packs coming and Untamed and Dice will be moved to Wild only, which will dramatically reduce the demand on the U and D summoners. Land gives them a place to still be valuable and give them a demand factor outside of playing. I don't get why monsters are included in the Land model, but not summoners, as in game play, summoners are vital for performance. This should be consistent for land too, where the quality of the summoner + reg/gold provides value - like an overseer for the Land production. To me, it makes sense to have Summoners like plot managers. :)
most of the summoners i would use on land, nobody would listen to anyway. ie vera, contessa, mother khala....waka 🤣
Make crappy summoners great again!!
By giving them more utility you assure the price goes up even higher. Thats a terrible idea. Players need summoners to use, not have them be priced out.
What summoners will they be able to get cheap? Anything that has playing value will still be scarce - everything that doesn't will still have cards available. Why not encourage the more useless cards to be taken off the market?
Thats not how you encourage useless cards be taken off the market. I dont know of any useless cards btw. All youre doing with this is pumping the summoner prices for no good reason.
Look at the available cards for rent from CL - the next set is coming out in a few months. U and D will be retired to Wild. Most people don't play wild. There are already a lot of summoners available for Dice. The only place there is scarcity is in the diamond leagues - new players aren't going to be playing there and none of them are likely to go into the Wild format at all, because the cost will be far too high.
Rather than Legendary bonus cards, they can add a couple extra summoners in for the next set, the mini releases and the quarterly, and then, there is no issue for summoners. If they want to devalue the summoners for gameplay, just add a couple more. Look at how often Lux is used.
I dont think thats true at all otherwise the rewards would be significantly higher since the reward pool is 50/50 between them.
Secondly the cheapest summoner you can buy... theres literally only 350 available on the market. Some other cheapest ones are in the hundreds!
Add more land utility to them you assure theyre all bought out and prices skyrocket.
A big no from me.
but 2700 for rent.
Remember that the majority of the rewards go to the higher leagues and the people who are playing there have been around since the start. They have decent sets.
What is the cost of even buying the key Beta cards to be able to play okay in Diamond? Not to mention the summoners. You think the average new player is going to go in at that level?
185 Lyanna.
192 Malric
Will people buy these knowing they will barely play them, if at all - they are bit players now and new players likely can't afford to buy for the 1 in 300 times that it might be useful.
How often do you use the Untamed Rare summoners?
If you were a new player, is that what you would be buying?
They aren't useless to you, because you can afford to keep them available, even though you likely never use them. For the people who are coming in now to play and win, they won't be buying cards that are barely used.
Im buying the one thats cheapest so I can play.
So you don't care if you win or not?
Oh, and the cheapest to play would be in Modern format, not wild - which has more packs coming for it, likely at another overprint, so prices fall again.
Just a thousand new players willing to spend money on the game and they literally clear out the entire summoner market.
Thats how scarce these things are. 3x their PP and see how long they last. The cheapest commons, with lowest PP, with more than a million cards available doubled in price in a bear market because of Land.
3x PP for summoners and these are all gone in a second.
Like I said, 3x is likely too high. 1.5 would be enough and maybe even lower. But there should be a bonus of some kind for summoners. It doesn't have to be enough to clear all from the market, but an incentive to take the unused ones from the market. That gives space for people to also buy more of the new ones coming, as they can clear out their unused onto land and then replace with more useful ones from new sets - and these would be people who do have the ability to buy. There are likely only 1000 people who have put in large amounts into SL now.
I mean you keep saying it and im just not seeing reasoning behind it.
Theyre already very scarce, theres really not much of them unused that people are putting them up for sale.
If you want to clear out the unused ones, how many is your target for market availability if 350 for the cheapest one isnt low enough? 50? 20?
For some summoners theres only 10 of them already available.
Do you follow the markets for summoners?
Look at the activity of buys for the last month.
Also, available cards, doesn't mean available BCX.
Yeah. it means you cant really make a lot of max cards. For the cheapest summoner you can only buy 6 maxed cards and barely combine 3-4 more. Thats 10 max summoners.
How scarcer do you want to make this?
I suspect most of the sales on those lame Summoners were in anticipation that they would play a more significant role on land. No one is using them seriously for gameplay.
Or do you think that new players should be buying the dregs that don't get wins?
I can not support this.
I do not wish to change a published whitepaper. This opens a floodgate that brings uncertainity.
Matt verbally mentioned in the previous townhall, and I quote: "Summoners already enjoy higher prices and advantages"
What has changed?
Those multipliers proposed is absolutely outrageous! As small may be considered, and definitely a big NO with those multipliers.
I will DV this at 100%.
I thought the 'council' will do better in discussing with the community and has the 'pulse' of the community. I am dissapointed.
I totally get that you were hoping for better communication and are feeling let down by the council's proposal. But, I don't necessarily agree that just because the council is supposed to be in touch with the community, that they will always have proposals that everyone agrees with.
From what I can see, the council did the right thing by listening to the concerns of many in the Splinterlands community (as evidenced by concerns I heard raised by many during the recent town hall) and coming up with a proposal for everyone to vote on. And even if the community ends up voting no, that's still a win for the governance process because it means that the community has a voice in deciding the direction of Splinterlands.
yes, these are my thoughts exactly. I care that we have the vote so that the community can feel they had their concerns addressed. If this doesn't pass, then that's the will of the community and that's great! To me its a big win and no one should be able to throw salt at the DEVs after this vote on this issue.
I think I agree.
I am only saying, why it need to be a proposal post immediately. Why can't council just write this as a post. Just a post to have a discussion, as opposed to a proposal. But if it is a proposal, that is fine too. I am expressing my view.
I think there's some value in doing it as a proposal personally. It forces everyone to make a decision/clear stance.
Sometimes where the community stands on something is unclear until it's put to a stake weighted vote.
This kind of proposal clears things up very quick so we can see if it's actually a priority for the community or not. If it's just a discussion, we definitely get glimpses into the different arguments, but don't necessarily have as strong an understanding as when folks actually vote.
With a proposal we get a few benefits:
I do think it's fair that there's likely a balance for what should or shouldn't be a proposal, and I'm not sure where that line is... but on this one, there was clear frustration voiced by many in the community about how Summoners didn't have extra value in Land and this let's us see how many in the community feel strongly about it or not.
On the matter at hand... I think I'm with you and am voting against this. I agree with @yabapmatt 's assessment that Summoners do not need extra benefit on land and would rather not have their price be artificially driven up further with no clear reason to do so in land. Especially because it will make them harder to acquire for the game where they DO serve a big purpose already.
Agree. You never know what the silent majority is thinking and usually they only make themselves known during a vote.
Its your choice to DV 100%.
I'm sorry you didn't like that the council brought this to a vote. Not everything is black and white in the community and there are people with passion on both sides of all issues.
I personally am thrilled that it was brought to a vote so we can move on. The alternative is that a lot of players will feel they were screwed and never got a chance to be heard. Now everyone will be heard, including you AZ. (which I fully support you being heard too!) :)
No problem, Dave. I have no issues with discussion. I feel the change is too soon, without knowing any implication of the original. I have always said one thing, that we are making too many changes too fast without understanding the impact. I wish we slow it down a bit. That's all.
That's fair, and I am happy to have you weigh in with your thoughts and SPS voting power too!
Agreed, I'd be for summoners adding some small perk. I was thinking as a staked power source similar to what Runi provides. There are also plenty of other perks that could be added later (such as the speeding up of building, etc.). It would be good to have something since 'summoners being valuable on land' was the narrative for so long. There are only a small number of summoners that aren't particularly useful for regular play. I think it would be enough if such a future perk was signaled to all the people who stocked up on summoners.
? musta missed every single one of those town halls. i just heard crappy cards like rusty androids are gunna be the ones.
Not for this proposal. I'm hoping older summoners become cheaper - give others a go in game play.
Certainly don't think we need another reason for everyone to start buying up all the summoners.
I have heard the same thing.
I have heard Matt saying on Monday, and I quote: "Summoners enjoy a higher price and rarity already"
What has changed?
Hard no on this, entry level cost of summoners is already the biggest bottleneck in onboarding new players.
There's enough value already attached to them with the rewards being based upon the card level, which is capped by summoner level.
Terrible self serving idea that'll hurt bringing in new players.
If I increase one of my death summoners to a higher level, I'm now encouraged to increase the levels of tons of other death cards. If we remove all the summoners from circulation with this proposal, it means there will now be less incentive to combine many other cards. I'm 100% voting against this. It's not well thought out.
Also, the idea that this was just putting it out there to resolve the conversation like the council members are saying is ridiculous. You all chose a 3x. How many of these comments are telling you they'd vote for less than a 3x? There are specifics that should have been discussed. Not recklessly thrown up for a vote with random numbers attached. This council is looking worse and worse to me.
If summoners had a more ancillary purpose that would give them added value to land, such as being a power source while staked in lieu of burning 5k DEC, I'd be for it. A 3X bonus seems excessive.
I think 3x is a bit rich. Perhaps Summoners can get time bonuses for clearing land and defeating enemies or Boss monsters, but a pure 3x PP increase seems unwarranted.
Find other ways to value add the summoners please.
I've downvoted this, mostly because I believe they were treated as normal cards on land for specific reasons.
Perhaps some niche benefit as a compromise.
Summoners could have a small chance to tame monsters on occupied land instead of killing/harvesting them. They could be playable in ranked/tourneys and/or used on land.
3x is way too high in my opinion.
How about - 1 land slot should be reserved for only summoners (e.g. analogous as a power source). But the other cards are not level-limited by the summoner. This removes the team's concern about level limits, but also gives use to summoners.
IT'S A NO FROM ME DAWG
Use the LAND CALC then imagine giving summoners 3x ... It's crazy talk bordering on game breaking. 150k pp for a couple of my gfl beta summoners which would become 675kpp with some boosts. Imagine a plot with 4-5 of those. That's like 20-30% totem probability each hour on the right kind of plot. And the same production of like 300-500 common plots.
It would be insane to NOT use a beta summoner on land and would never ever be played with but by people who hate money... essentially removing beta summoners or alpha summoners entirely from the game itself.
1.5x is perhaps ok even 25% on basepp would make a bigger impact than you suspect.
WHY I'M VOTING YES?
Just because I despise what a few bad (Morally questionable) actors do to hurt the reputations of accounts by voting -100% on posts they don't like and feel like they have to bully ... and so because this account has higher rep I'll vote yes with this one while leaving my GF account and others i can talk to to be able to vote no with -1% (like a well behaved adult) for later if needed.
the account @spl.council should do a few posts we can vote on with a Beneficiary of 100% even to null or sps.dao - so it can build up a hive reputation and dont need to worry about minus-rep.
Regarding the Proposal and your Answer: Im with you adding Summoner as Land Worker because
a) some players will eventually use their deck cards to let them work on land and the summoner are useless (ok could be rented out)
b) 3X is way to much - I'm think im also good with an
1,5%Edit: 1,5X -> a small bonus on top of a normal card.I'd vote on them with beneficiary to the dao.
Also to be clear 1.5x not 1.5% hahaha
I think that's what you meant as well... which is technically an additive 50%
Something in the 25%-50% range but probably better representived 1.25x to 1.5x
I see the problem more in the fact that you need summoners to play the game. If now all kinds of people buy up summoners to put them on land, they will simply become unafordable and the new player experience will become even worse.