SPS Governance Proposal - Implement Daily Burn of Riftwatchers Packs
58c77012e70ded8fccd42bc5f778adb1206b6db1
This is a proposal to have the DAO begin taking 15,000 (15k) Riftwatchers packs out of the available sale pool every day until the set is sold out. Of those 15k packs, 13,500 (90%) of them would be burned and the remaining 1,500 (10%) would go to the @sps.dao account so that the DAO retains a reserve of packs to be able to sell or use for promotions in the future.
There are currently just under 2M Riftwatchers packs still available for sale, so if this proposal is approved and no more packs were to be sold then the set would be sold out in just about 130 days. In reality - taking into account packs purchased by players - it should sell out sooner than that.
While some people might worry that the DAO is giving up long term revenue by burning inventory in exchange for more short term revenue, I believe that the potential downside will have minimal impact and that the potential upsides far outweigh it. I believe that the downside is minimal because the DAO will sell a new mini set at some point next year after Rebellion is released, and will continue to sell mini sets into the future, so it will always have additional sources of revenue over the long term. Additionally, future sales by the DAO will likely perform better if previous packs and cards are more scarce and more valuable on the secondary markets, which is why I believe it will be better for the DAO over the long term to burn excess supply rather than over-saturate the market.
If this proposal is approved and the packs begin to be regularly taken out of the sale pool then it will force the set to sell out and the remaining airdrops to be triggered within the next few months. This should highly incentivize players to begin purchasing packs at a much faster rate leading up to the airdrops and to the set selling out.
This will, in turn, drive more DEC spending, more revenue to the DAO, and potentially higher secondary market prices for Riftwatchers cards and packs once they are sold out - especially when paired with the upcoming release of card staking on land. The increased DEC spending will also help bring us closer to having SPS start being burned, which would likely be far more beneficial for the DAO (as the largest SPS holder) and all SPS holders than anything else we could do.
This mechanism worked very well for Chaos Legion packs earlier this year, and will likely be built into future pack sales from the beginning. In my opinion there is minimal downside, but significant potential upside, to Splinterlands players and SPS holders from this proposal. I sincerely hope that the SPS token holder community agrees!
Thank you for participating in SPS DAO Governance @yabapmatt.sps!
You can place or monitor SPS Stake Weighted votes for and against this proposal at the link below:
Link to this Pre-Proposal
Updated At: 2023-07-26 19:05 UTC
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I understand the short term argument for this, but I won't vote for burning of DAO assets.
My reasoning is these packs could be vaulted in the DAO for 10 years, and then be distributed as prizes in ranked play, tourneys, brawls, land distribution, Burning events, etc.
I can imagine the day many years from now where the DAO supplements various ways to create value, and taking away that value now from the DAO will make it harder in the future to use these assets.
Of course this is just my opinion. And I would fully support this proposal if the DAO received 100% of the packs taken out of circulation. But I want them "vaulted" in the DAO and not burned.
Well that's why I proposed that 10% would go to the DAO. Keep in mind that 10% of the remaining packs is almost 200k packs that would go to the DAO, for a set that has only sold about 1M packs in total. I think it would be really bad for the DAO or anyone to have double the total amount of packs in circulation for a set just sitting around that could potentially be unleashed on the market at some future date.
What would you think if there were an extra 1.5M Beta packs still just available somewhere? I think it would make players very wary of putting much money into those cards and that's not something I would ever vote to do. I think 10% of the remaining packs makes a lot more sense as far as preserving DAO value and future assets without leaving a massive specter overhanging RW cards forever.
Matt, thank you for the reply. I will consider this point between now and the live vote:
I have always believed you were ambitious in calculating the level of demand for each set all the way back to Alphas, but we always grew into them. I do recognize we should "right-size" future production of both main sets and special sets.
If possible could you give us your current thinking on what you feel the next Main Set production level should be (assuming $4 pack) and the Auxiliary Set production level should be (assuming $5 pack)?
If they are going to be cut way down from the latest production runs, then I believe it would make sense to burn these based on your comments.
If you can't answer that yet, then I understand. But it would help if we had some color on your thinking in my opinion.
My thinking is that we should stop trying to guess the proper production level (which is nearly impossible with the rate that things change in this space) and instead just plan this burn mechanic upfront, so that way we let the market decide, which is almost always better than central planning.
Specifically, for future sets I am thinking that we plan a relatively high number of packs (as we did for CL and RW) and then let everyone know upfront that once a year has passed from the beginning of the pack sale any remaining packs would be burned on a daily basis over the next 6 months.
For example, if Rebellion is 10M packs (which is quite a lot), then if only 1M sell in the first year, then the 9M remaining packs will be burned in equal increments (50k packs per day) over the next 180 days. This allows everyone to plan a lot better for the timing of sets selling out and new sets being released and lets the market decide how many packs are ultimately in circulation.
It's like I talked about in the "Change" section of my original post on this account - if we find a better way to do something then we should switch to that and not keep doing things the worse way just because we don't want to change things.
Thank you for the color on this Matt. Very helpful to know how you are thinking about future set releases. I will give my stance of "no burns for DAO assets" more thought.
How would you feel about doing a staggered release of packs, and then burning on a monthly basis any unsold packs, instead of waiting for x period in total.
For instance, if the pack set has 10M packs:
Month 1: 1 million packs available, with x being burned each day if sell rate is less than 1 million / number of days in month.
Month 2: 1 million packs available with x being burned each day if the sell rate is less than 1 million / number of days in the month.
This would continue for the duration of that set - a fixed 10 or 12 month period.
This way the burn mechanic is built in right from the start and is a constant threat for the duration the set is available on the market.
I like that. My main consideration is that the rules are stated ahead of time and there is an ultimate limit. The reason is so we can make decisions based on that information.
if those packs are "vaulted" and used for rewards down the road when sps distribution ends, is that really "unleashing" them into the market? value is value and if anyone is buying packs to hold for 10 years is not really here for the game itself and more for investing (which is perfectly fine) but personally i would like the DAO to be focused on providing value post sps instead of protecting investor intrests. Just my opinion though and i feel as dave does currently. Anything the DAO gains from now until SPS distribution ends, directly extends the value the DAO can provide to the players and extend the life of the game. I will say that if the % that is vaulted was increased to say...25% I would feel better about it since this directly deletes DAO value as it stands.
I agree with this sentiment. I'm not in favor or burning anything when it comes to the DAO's assets. If the packs don't sell, they don't sell. If the airdrops are a concern the team can simply end the airdrop early.
Over and over I keep seeing proposals and votes to essentially try and cannibalize the DAO for current players or should I say, investors... The DAO needs to be around to be able to host events far into the future and these packs can easily be part of that. We might as well just vault them all...
i think there is an important thought process missing from the proposal that the company has definitely done. how is the riftwatcher sellout related to the miniset sale that the team wants to release? is that an important motivation behind it? that they can release the miniset faster?
why is this not mentioned? instead, the airdrop is highlighted.
You know as much as we do at this point. The company is potentially planning to do a mini-set release in the next few months. I would have made this proposal regardless.
So the number of Riftwatcher packages in the store has no influence on the release date, do I understand that correctly yes?
then thank you for clearing up my concerns!
Since the DAO is getting more mini sets to sell in the future I don't mind slowly burning RW.
Why not just leave them in the store? If they don't sell, who cares. They would simply be sitting there if there is ever demand for them.
I dont like this idea. I think is too soon for this. We just voted on selling rws for dec, we need to wait to see if that has any effect or not.
Also I think paragraphs 4 and 5 are contradictory. If you sell more of an asset (aka rws cards) but you dont really have the demand for it (since people are just buying because of fomo) then card prices wont really go up, in fact it will be quite the opposite, card prices will go down because when the dust settles and people find themselves holding more rws cards that they really wanted, cards will find their way into the market and prices will go down.
For rws to sell out we need real demand for the cards. We need more players (like always) and we also need to get rid of dice in modern. Thats why I think when rebellion is announced or released rws will start picking up steam again.
We've already seen the effect of DEC sales. It is nice, but it didn't make a huge dent. This would bring value to the RW set as it stands, while still reserving a decent amount for "the vault." 10% seems like a good estimate to balance future demand and supply based on the sales to date and expected sales throughout the burn. There is definitely an incentive for the DAO to allow the company to move towards a better release schedule with improved sale mechanics.
even though 100% was supposed to be dao funds. you are essentially robbing the dao for short term (hopefully) price increases. Makes no sense unless you are trying to push rebellion out the door which with our current player count and sentiment, will be a massive failure. I understand burning SPL assets made by and for the company but to do it for dao assets will do nothing but shortchange the dao. why not make it 25-50% vaulted for the dao? why a measly 10%?
So your saying you understand and its ok for the company, who uses funds to build and improve our game, to get "shortchanged". But when it comes to the DAO (the playerbase for the most part) its unacceptable? What did we the players even do to make these RW packs? Kinda seems like they were handed to us by the same people your voting against.
Greed makes people blind to alot of things. Passing this proposal will be great for the game, just as burning CL packs was. IMO of course
Seems like this proposal is too soon.
Trust in the upcoming releases of card staking on land and soulkeep to drive card demand, game awareness and new players.
Believe in the GLG project kicking off well too which in turn brings extra demand/interest for SPS and the splinterverse.
Deliver in a timely manner on the above and everything falls into place right?
I know you have set aside 10% for general promotion, but I would like to guarantee some portion of the burned RW packs go towards Ranked battle rewards once the stash of CL is run through. However, I understand that guaranteeing the 2nd part might be a bit more contentious than the proposal as it is, so for the best chance of approval maybe it is asking a bit too much. Time to let the public decide.
once again too many changes too quick.. let some time for the previous proposal to take into effect.. why was the initial proposal to change it for DEC done if the plan was to just burn it.. most ppl are tapped out and artificial urgency like this is not going to make those get sold.. instead a bulk buy event like chaos xmas might be better really
Burn them and then no more mini sets. Give the DAO 20% of main pack sales.
@yabapmatt.sps
Unrelated but quick suggestion to help balance the card supply. I brought this up months back on a townhall. You and aggy were mostly positive about it and even named it. I've refined it below for further consideration.
Card graveyard on land. Each plot gets a permanent boost of PP for each card burned on it up to the 100k PP limit. The burn bonus = 10% of the PP the card would give if staked. So a CL common 1 BCX would give the plot a permanent .25 PP boost.
Someone who burns a ton of cards while they're cheap (now) will have a hard to match advantage when card prices rise. The value will be reflected in their plot if they choose to ever sell it since the bonus is permanent.
The bonus is only active if the plot has all 50k DEC and 5 maxed cards staked on it. The dead monsters require tribute so each PP they add still requires grain just like staked monsters.
Cards burned on land do not give DEC. Reward pools stay the same. Cards are voluntarily torched by the community as we see fit.
PS: I'm also voting yes to this proposal.
I'd support a proposal for this. I really !LUV this idea!
@imno, @d-zero(1/1) sent LUV. | connect | community | HiveWiki | NFT | <>< daily
! help(no space) to get help on Hive. InfoThanks! I'm probably going to make it a proposal but I think if I put it out now it would fail because the community will want to see what effect land is going to have as is.
I don't think land 1.5 will be as impactful as we all hope. I'm just trying to get this idea out there now so it's not out of no where if I propose it later.
I instinctively like this. I expect only the most productive plots would end up with graveyards, but that's okay. Its all a step in the right direction.
Glad you like it! I'm just hoping to get the idea out there to see what people think before I decide whether to propose it.
You're probably right about the best plots ending up with graveyards. In the same way that those plots will end up with the best cards, titles, and runi. There will be some exceptions though. Like in my case, all I have for land is 9 common plots but I have thousands of 1 cent cards. I'd send quite a few to the graveyard. 👻
Matt; you just passed a proposal to sell RW for DEC. Please consider waiting a few months and see that effect. Why release proposals every other week? Having RW available officially is a good thing at least players can buy something from the primary market if they want to.
This much churning and back and forth action signals panic, even if that is the case we perhaps don’t want to show it.
Agreed, not a fan of rapid fire changes to a single aspect.
My thoughts exactly. I agree it needs to be burned, I don't agree on the timing for reasons already well known.
Rare occasion I agree with you
We're going to overlearn this lesson. Rebellion's gonna be 500,000 packs, and they'll sell out in 30 seconds.
Like prior to the bull run. I purchased like 2 Dice packs then gone, then there were no packs to buy for months while everyone was pumping card prices 1000% of what many are at now. Imagine if there were packs to buy when the secondary market was churning 400k+ a day in card sales during that time! I'm thinking they just leave the packs there for a while while land drops and if have to, release the new mini set and keep RW alive too and if we must burn do a very very SLOW burn that lasts 2 or 3 years with a function that basically limits the burn rate in the event packs sales increase beyond that estimated monthly burn.
Instead of burning I would just move them to the DAO to use in the future as rewards.
Imo the game needs more fun game modes (like draft mode) which don't need a crazy high upfront investment and where everyone is on a level playing field. A possible way to do this is to have an entry fee or battle pass (for everyone the same) and something like the Ritwatcher packs as rewards. (so playing this game mode pretty much equals buying Riftwatcher packs with better players getting a better deal on them)
The cards that everyone uses in these game mode(s) can come from players who stake their cards in a pool receiving part of the earnings that come in based on how many of each card are staked and how often the specific cards are used. (other parts of what comes in can go to the DAO / Splinterlands Team / be burned / Part of the prize pool).
What this would do:
That's an interesting suggestion!!
Also, maybe with or without bots?
https://leofinance.io/threads/zaku/re-leothreads-yqouablo
The rewards earned on this comment will go directly to the people ( zaku ) sharing the post on LeoThreads,LikeTu,dBuzz.
Perfect timing for this. The extended runway will also help bridge between now and the next pack sales. Supporting this proposal
Before burning can you add RW packs to the chests? Let's increase the amount of reward packs we're getting as players.
I sincerely hope this proposal fails. I respect and like @yabapmatt.sps a lot, however, in my humble point of view, this burning will accelerate the launch of rebellion and will harm those who are still building CL/RW decks to play modern, not to mention that it will speed up the transfer of these cards to the WILD where bots will be released, new players will not arrive investing heavily, unfortunately it is a time when NFT games are in low demand, I think that the focus of the game should be to improve the player experience, as mentioned earlier, we have several players who create accounts , but they give up the game, we have to have a tool that makes players continue to play splinterlands.
Yes, agree! Let us small to medium players have the fun of being ABLE to build us up.
And does everybody have nodes, lands and bots?
When the whales and big shots take the fun out for the rest, what happens then?
the game needs to motivate and hold the average player, in addition to also holding new games, this measure in my opinion can bring a certain insecurity. I believe in splinterlands and I will defend it until the end, but I would not like this proposal to be approved
this!
Thank you!
I definitely agree, great points.
Thank you!
Selfishly, I would vote NO because I want to get as many Riftwatcher cards as cheaply as possible, but I voted YES because it makes sense for the game's overall economy.
would have wished you made a clear statement about the benefits for the company, mainly that RW is competition to the miniset the company wants to release. I´ll vote against this because I don´t believe the proposal has been made with the intention to benefit the DAO.
glad someone sees that, the dao gets 100% of proceeds but this proposal takes away 90% of that. it is crushing the dao funding that this brings. who cares how long it takes to sell out. its taking this long for a reason and burning them and releasing a new set (which i believe is the intention) will not change anything. people are hesitant to invest atm due to the losses they have experienced. if this proposal gave a much larger chunk to the dao for future reward distribution that would be a different story. the main purpose of the dao is for changes via governance voting and for rewards after sps distribution. this seems to be a pattern lately of saying "theres more sets for the dao to be funded off of". that may be true until the next dao sets have the same issues which comes back soley on the fact that we need new players, end of story.
Brother, if the game/company goes under so will the DAO. This DAO first mentality needs to go. IMO.
@initiate1 the company isn´t going down thus this is not a concern to my evaluation. Might be to yours but not everyone thinks that way. The DAO has a task in terms of providing rewards once the SPS supply ended and we´re not making that task easy as smokelord said very well
Hearing a lot about raising prices, and getting more revenue to the DAO.
But what about new money and new players entering?
And what about us in the middle and on the bottom? If you want to raise prices and secure funding to the DAO. That's fine, I'll just wait so I can sell it all. Maybe I'll even go out with plus!
Cuz I'm no way near getting my money back by selling now. (And yes, I understand raising prices will help that, but I would also have to invest even MORE to what has proven to not give a return)
the people on the side of getting more revenue to the dao are against this. because burning rw is directly taking money from the dao in the long run. the ones who want prices to rise are in favor of burning the packs in hopes that the theory of scarcity will play out. that last theory will not play out because demand is not there and people are tapped out. you can not force false scarcity if the demand is not there for it.
Ok.🤔
I would like to hear what those in favour of this suggestion thinks about what I've said! ?
Unfortunately, I didn't see this post or proposal before after the 7 day mark.
Actually I don't know, for a card game I think it is normal to have packs to buy on the site.
Riftwatcher is not for the company, so we are not in a rush to sell them.
If a wave of player is coming before rebellion, it is good they can purchase something and contribute on the ecosystem.
I undestand the scarce side of thing, but it is maybe a little too soon.
I can vote yes for a proposal which burn packs like a timer before the launch of Rebellion, but I don t want the store empty for months before the new set
I said this when we were going through the same fun and games with CL. Lets not change the past, but learn for the future. Rebellion and future releases all need to be released with this daily burn initiated from the beginning.
Sale starts as ends as planned with no surprises, Amount of packs issued is not important, can be 1000/day or 1000000/day, doesnt matter as all unsold are burned as the clock ticks past midnight.
I'm voting no here.
My main reason is I don't really think the DAO should be used in any way to market move. I think we should let supply and demand do its thing instead of constantly messing around with artificial changes that will ultimately just end up taking away some of the DAOs assets. I'd rather the RW packs simply stay available for sale for ever if there isn't demand for them. They can just sit in the store. If they sell great, the DAO gets some income, if not, oh well, guess we wait for the next set.
I also think we shouldn't be using the DAO to try and push ANYthing that is short term in nature as the DAO's primary purpose is to essentially outlive the DEVs and allow the game to pay for future updates etc.
Finally, we JUST passed a proposal to accept DEC for payment. It is too early to tell if that has made much of a difference too.
When I joined Splinterlands, Chaos packs were still available for purchase with credits. Only recently were they sold out, and I and others continued to buy packs ingame, even with a much better price on the markets.
No - nothing wrong with letting the packs take a more natural course. They will sell when they power creep into modern. This proposal just seems way to greedy for a quick buck. Take pokemon as an example and how successful their rotations are in the TCG(I cant imagine former magic players respecting pokemon hence this proposal). They just released scarlet & violet base set which were all cheap individually upon release because they were weaker then former pack releases. Now that those older cards are being rotated out the S&V base set cards are shooting in value.
Ahat @azircon said. We have just implemented the DEC for RW proposal, let's give it some time. Maybe we could focus on spending some money on marketing efforts to get new players in, to raise demand for all SL assets.
I think we are all missing something here.
The history of physical CCG games is that if a set dosent sell out and its time for a new release the old set is still available to buy if you want.
The team has been waiting to release a new set till the old one has sold out.
Why cant we just release the next set on time and have RW packs up for sale and the rebellion mini set at the same time.
In this way new players have access to older sets to buy even as the new set comes out.
It's a no from me. This change basically comes off the back of the 1st change to DEC which has been active what, 3 weeks? I would support this burn if the burn rate is slowed to 2 or 3 years to overlap into new sets. Remember during the bull run when we had no packs to buy after Dice sold out??? And SPL watched as 400K a day in sales was going into Whales pockets selling their cards at 1000% profit on the marketplace? Do not make the mistake of burning away DAO (your) assets when we are at a point where everyone is tapped out from having to accumulate bucketloads of SPS, DEC and Cards for land. Once people start hitting their targets for ranked and land, I recon RW will start seeing some serious sales again and in particular if land smashes us to peg. I think this proposal does nothing other than to provide a scarcity tool for a market that isn't at all suitable in the timing. I agree on the idea of burning, I don't agree with the speed or timing of said burn.
NO this is just plain idiotic. It's shortsighted and only helps whales. My opinion is the same as everyone else's who downvoted this. If it passes i'll start thinking of quitting before you destroy this game with other proposals like that.
What's the catch? Release of Rebellion much sooner? No thanks!
I support this proposal, since will take cards out of the market which will be needed for rebellion sale.
Now the question is what to do with the almost 3 million chaos pack that are on market?
A possible exchange 1:1 for rebellion? why would people buy rebellion when they get cheap chaos packs? or rebellion cards will be so strong that will make chaos cards worthelss and in return chaos packs? haven't seen this adressed yet!.