Establish an Exchange Fund to Pursue an SPS listing on Binance
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Proposal:
The purpose of this proposal is to establish a functional budget to pursue both a market maker for the SPS token and to pursue a top tier exchange listing. There is no way to be certain of success in the pursuit of a centralized exchange listing, but by apportioning the funds and establishing some general guidelines for how the DAO would like to pursue a listing if one becomes available, we would allow for the necessary conversations to advance those opportunities to be able to take place.
@clayboyn has already made a very detailed post explaining a lot of the basics about market makers and exchange listings, so if you would like a better understanding of what our options are and how they function, that's a good place to start. Please keep in mind that exchanges generally require NDAs to even have a conversation with them related to listing a token. There is absolutely zero chance we get and maintain a top tier listing without a market maker.
If this proposal passes, the Unallocated portion of SPS that was formerly allocated for Team (270 million SPS) will be authorized to be used by the SPS DAO to negotiate and potentially pay for exchange listing fees, liquidity deposits and marketing fees as well as market maker fees and deposits that may be required to list with a top tier exchange. These funds will not be available to be used for any other purpose for the duration that this proposal is active without a vote to explicitly remove the authorization.
The SPS DAO will allocate a budget of up to $500,000 of SPS and/or stable coins to hire a market maker and provide the necessary liquidity to operate on high volume exchanges. At this point with the SPS token having so much upside potential, it would likely be in our best interest to hire a subscription based market maker instead of selling token options to a lending based market maker. Not all of this would be a spend and it's unlikely that all of it would need to be used, the intent is to simply authorize a budget for the SPS DAO Project Manager to negotiate with.
The SPS DAO will also allocate a budget of up to $2,500,000 of SPS and/or stable coins to pursue a listing with Binance. The funds are not authorized to be used for any other centralized exchange listing. There is no way to be assured of success in the pursuit of an exchange listing and it should be known that the terms of any deals will be under NDA contracts. The intent is to simply authorize a budget for the SPS DAO Project Manager to negotiate with and not a guarantee of results.
If this proposal passes, the budget authorization outlined above will expire 365 days after the date this proposal passes.
Mar. 16 Amendments
After listening to Yabapmatt's thoughts in the latest Town Hall concerning our chances of successfully pursuing a tier 1 exchange listing, and reading feedback in Discord, I have decided to add some qualifications to this proposal.
The budget outlined above will not become available for the SPS DAO Project Manager to utilize until these game development milestones have been reached:
The NPE (New Player Experience) project is complete. As exact criteria for completeness is a bit nebulous at this time, I leave it up to the SPS DAO Project Manager to decide, in consultation with the Splinterlands team, when this requirement has been satisfied.
SPS Validator software has been released and is available to run on independently operated servers by the community.
If both of the above do not happen within 365 days after the date this proposal passes, then the budget authorization will expire without being used, and require another DAO proposal vote to be extended further.
The intent here is to ensure that the SPS DAO Project Manager chooses a wise time to pursue an exchange listing, with the greatest chance of success. Having a solid NPE in place will increase our player retention & smoothness of onboarding, and SPS Validators will show to the exchanges that our token's operation is sufficiently decentralized.
Raising the budget ceiling
It is entirely possible that prevailing market conditions will be very different at the future time when the SPS DAO Project Manager decides to utilize the budget set forth herein. If, upon making a careful determination of listing requirements at the time, the SPS DAO Project Manager decides that the authorized budget is not sufficient and a higher budget is needed, then a new DAO proposal vote will be required to raise the budget ceiling.
Responsible use of funds
The SPS DAO Project Manager should strive to negotiate as good a listing deal for us as he can, and if it can be helped not spend the entirety of the funds authorized for use by this proposal. It's important to realize that the budget set forth herein establishes a maximum limit of what CAN be spent, not an exact amount that MUST be spent.
Mar. 17 Amendments
After careful consideration, I have removed Coinbase from the scope of this proposal and limited it to pursuing a Binance listing. I do not believe there is any realistic chance of getting listed on Coinbase (at least for the time being), due in part to the fact that BNB Smart Chain (formerly called Binance Smart Chain) is the primary blockchain for SPS and that chain is not supported by Coinbase. It is possible to imagine SPS being bridged to other chains which Coinbase does support, but that would require additional R&D and so will be left as something to consider in future SPS DAO proposals.
In addition, the following constraint is added on how funds may be made available for this proposal's budget:
Minimum threshold for selling SPS
In order to meet the budget authorized by this proposal, it may be necessary for the SPS DAO to sell some of its SPS holdings for stable coins and/or other tokens outside the Splinterlands ecosystem. The SPS DAO is not authorized to sell any SPS for such purposes unless SPS is currently trading at 10 cents or higher on whatever platform will be used for the transaction, at the time of each individual transaction.
Presumably, any such selling activity will be done in small increments stretched out over time, so as to minimize market impact (which also means the SPS price will need to be at or above 10 cents for a sustained period). The exact details of how this activity will be conducted (how much should be sold at once and how often, etc) can be decided on later if this exchange listing proposal passes.
The intent of this constraint is to ensure the SPS market is healthy enough to support the requisitioning of necessary funds. If we reach the 10 cent threshold, that also demonstrates the strength of the token and that we have some momentum built up, which will work in our favor during exchange listing negotiations.
Mar. 18 Amendment - Temporary suspension of SPS to DEC conversions
Some community members have expressed concern about the SPS to DEC conversion mechanism and how DEC supply may be affected if there is a rapid rise in the price of SPS. The worry is what would happen if too many people attempt to lock in SPS gains from any temporary rapid price increase by converting to DEC at roughly the same time, resulting in overinflation of DEC.
As a safeguard for the Splinterlands ecosystem, if SPS becomes listed on Binance, then the SPS DAO Project Manager will ask the Splinterlands team to temporarily suspend the SPS to DEC conversion mechanism. This suspension shall begin on the day that the listing becomes public knowledge, and will last until at least 2 weeks after the day that SPS becomes listed. After that time, the suspension can be lifted at any time when the Splinterlands team judges that it is safe to do so.
This suspension gives the SPS market a chance to adjust to any incremental demand that may be created by the listing. It would channel any short-term selling pressure to the SPS market and remove the possibility of a massive spike in the amount of DEC issued from conversions. By the end of the suspension period, the market will likely have settled into a new equilibrium.
Furthermore, the Splinterlands team should feel empowered to suspend the conversion mechanism whenever they judge it prudent to do so, beyond the specific time period mentioned above. They should not hesitate to protect the game and players if the economic situation calls for such an action.
Note that this measure is intended purely as protection against hypothetical situations that may or may not arise.
Here are some personal thoughts from myself to add context to the above proposal:
Wow, that's a lot of money!
Yes. Yes it is. Go big or go home. There is nothing to gain in life without risk, and I believe this is a risk worth taking given the potentially large benefits and visibility of being on a tier 1 exchange. It is a large amount, but it is a manageable expense and will not bankrupt the SPS DAO. We will still have a large treasury left over.
Why now?
Splinterlands has existed for several years already, and we are struggling to expand & attract interest from the broader crypto community. We need to kick things into high gear. I believe being on a tier 1 exchange will greatly increase our prospects for doing so, following the success of other web3 games such as Axie Infinity. It's a step we must take at some point to increase our visibility, and if not now, then when? How long should we keep kicking the can down the road? I say, let's strike while the iron is hot and be a part of the new bull run!
Why not run this proposal a little later once the NPE and SPS Validators are complete?
It will take a decent amount of time to negotiate & setup exchange listings, on top of development time to finish the NPE and SPS Validator milestones, and I don't want us to miss this bull run. Once the game is in a good position to make a top tier exchange listing have a reasonable chance of success, we need to be able to pounce on the opportunity without further delays.
Having the budget authorization already established by this proposal will mean less red tape and less delays when the time is right for the SPS DAO Manager to enter into negotiations with the exchanges.
Why worry about this at all? Won't things just sort themselves out if the devs build us an awesome game to play?
Building a game that is fun and exciting to play is crucially important. But to be a web3 game that thrives well into the future, we need to think like crypto investors, not only like gamers. We need investment in our token in order to support the game, get people excited, attract interest, and help ensure that the Splinterlands team never ends up in another cash crunch with their back against the wall.
Getting on a tier 1 exchange raises our visibility in the broader crypto community. It's a step on the path to success that multiple major, well known projects have undertaken. It will go a long way toward earning us a spot at the table in the big leagues.
We are lucky in that the SPS DAO is well funded and in a good position to help catapult us to the next level! So let's use those resources, instead of just letting them sit there until it's too late!
Who am I?
I'm an active member of the Splinterlands community, well known in Discord but wanting to remain anonymous for the purposes of kick starting this initiative. That will have to satisfy you.
Thank you for your consideration, and thank you to @cryptomancer for supporting me by graciously donating the 100k DEC fee for this proposal. Have fun voting everyone, and pass or fail, I look forward to seeing how many of you agree with my sentiments!
We have momentum. We have Aggy doing amazing work on the sales front with his KillerWhales appearance and Matt and the team doing amazing work on the NPE. Now is our time to do our part and go after this listing before everything ramps up. I know some want to wait for the NPE to be done and ready to onboard but the game is honestly in a better place now than when any of us started. 9 outta every 10 crypto influencers I see on Social Media have said that crypto gaming tokens are going to be big this bullrun. We need to be on these bigger exchanges so folks can speculate. Axie and other massive gaming tokens arent big because of their player bases. They are big because folks speculate.
Voted against cause its made by a fresh new account made - someone tries to hide his ass - asking for a bunch of money and are not involved in the ecosystem sounds sus.
generally a binance listing would be nice... but come with a more clear vision and dont act like a child calling stuff like go big or go home.
I respect your vote and don't take it personally, no worries. On the contrary though, I am one of the larger whales in the game (though there are others bigger than me) and am actively involved in the community. I have a lot at stake here personally.
I made this with a fresh account because I don't wish my identity to be an influence on the way people vote. Who I am should not matter if the proposal is sound.
As to the perceived lack of details, I believe Clayboyn has made it clear that we can't really get exact estimates on this stuff. The best we can do is a ballpark range, and then leave it up to him as DAO Manager to negotiate the best deal he can get for us.
And I happen to like the phrase "go big or go home". This is heavy duty stuff, deserving of serious care. But we can still have a little levity here & there. :-)
Actually your identity would have helped VCdragon.
This is too much money. Why does a coin need this much money to list in Binance? And how is DAO going to pay it? By selling DEC and SPS? Who will buy the DEC and SPS coins if DAO starts selling?
I agree the fees these exchanges charge are fairly outrageous. But both Binance and Coinbase are some of the biggest, most used exchanges in the world. If we want to be on the best, we need to shell out top dollar.
As to how to pay, that is a tricky point. We probably don't want to completely exhaust our supply of stablecoins, but also we don't want large amounts of selling pressure on SPS and DEC. So it's a fine line to walk. We might have to sell off small amounts slowly over time, in combination with using some stablecoins.
If the current LP proposals succeed in reducing inflation to liquidity pools, then some of that inflation could also be re-routed for the purpose of going after a tier 1 exchange listing.
Esposure to such large volumes of capital should positively affect SPS price. By my calculations, the DAO could repay itself the cost if SPS goes from USD .03 to .045, which i think itd do easily, as coins historically have.
If $SPS appreciates, which even @davemccoy says he thinks it would, we can create a proposal to cash out amounts of SPS into Stablecoins, leaving the DAO in a superior position. IMO its worth the risk, i dont think its that big of a risk personally, and i think it would pay off. Theres evidence to back it up.
Centralized exchanges unfortunately make a considerable difference when it comes to taking a cryptocurrency project mainstream. Binance has the widest availability and getting listed there could be much easier. Even if it is not a top exchange, I will be happy to see more CEX listings even if we had to pay to play. With more CEX listings, it would become easier to gain more recognition among DEXs.
That might be fine for cryptcurrency projects but splinterlands is a game first, a game that has a cryptocurrency for sure, but don't see why binance or coinbase users, of which i am one, would be interested in sps.
It's a game and an investment. It's both. I firmly believe we can have the best of both worlds here. There's room for people to enjoy whichever aspect suits them the most.
I understand the proposal as written but what I did not see is any clear statement of the benefits of doing this.
I get the implied benefit of if sps is on binance or coinbase we are exposed to a bigger market and its value may increase, but that is no guarantee of success.
Furthermore, sps got close to a $1 value all by itself and to imagine it being sustainably worth $1.2 trillion seems frothy already,
is the involvement of traders any wiser than it was to get vc investors in steem monsters inc?
Thank you for your thoughts. You're right, there is no guarantee of success. Getting listed is not a "magic bullet" that will solve all our problems. SPS was $1 in the past because back then it was brand new, people were riding the high of it being "the next shiny thing", and the number of tokens in circulation was initially very low. As the circulation now is much larger, it would take a correspondingly bigger push to ever get it back up to $1. Personally I believe a 10 cent target in the intermediate timeframe is more reasonable.
And make no mistake, getting a top tier exchange listing isn't guaranteed to get it back up to $1 either. And I'm not a pump & dump kind of guy, I'd like to see a steady, slow, sustained rise over time. Being on Binance may subject us to occasional pump & dumps. But that's simply a reality in this business, you see it with everything, even high marketcap coins.
However, velocity of money is very important for maintaining momentum. We want to see volume, see tokens swishing back & forth between traders & investors, the more the merrier. I expect short term pumps would be eclipsed by long term gains, provided we continue to do things that make Splinterlands the game stronger.
The benefits as I see them are:
I will wait and see how the community thinks but that sounds like a very hard cost for some questionable soft possible benefits.
I may be missing something but I want more exposure to people who want to play a fun game rather than the "rest of the crypto world"; don't much care about being taken seriously by this "rest of the crypto world"; and based on the mess outside investors seem to have made of steem momnsters, am sceptical about them giving a stuff about splinterlands or sps.
I support your idea overall, but I think it could be greatly improved from hard data. Sounds like there are two underlying hypotheses to prove:
SPS is underpriced relative to its maturity and utility, because of how difficult it is to obtain given the obscure chain and no CEX listings.
A growing token price is the most effective marketing tool in crypto in terms of encouraging new players.
In my opinion, both are true - but some suggestions on what we could do to validate:
Examples of price action for other in-game tokens pre and post T1 CEX launch.
% of signups that joined within a SPL "pump" month (i.e. mid-late 2021, for example). The higher %, the more we can validate both hypotheses.
Current monthly active users that joined within a SPL "pump" month. This gives us insight into stickiness of said users.
The only untestable statement is: "Listing on a T1 CEX is the best use of funds." That is completely a matter of opinion.
In my view, it should have been done years ago and is simply table-stakes for modern web3 games - as long as it does not bankrupt the DAO, I would place it at a very high priority.
There is some solid evidence that the coin would go up in price. If it does, its worth the risk, especially in a potentially sustained bull run… being liquid on the biggest exchange in the world is a really… really good thing. Someone could create a proposal to have the DAO sell SPS holdings to repay itself, potentially even profiting.
I won't be voting, but I will say the budget is realistic in my opinion. I do like the decision to use the "unapportioned" funds as leverage to negotiate with as that doesn't necessarily require the DAO to use its SPS holdings.
Edited on 3/18 based on the changes made.
I will now support this proposal because I'm thrilled that we handled the 2 biggest potential problems.
I believe the will of the community is to move forward with the tier 1 listing on Binance, and I want to support that process now too. I'm thrilled that there was great dialogue and a sincere effort to handle the biggest issues each side had (as shown in the various amendments).
Thanks to the proposal writer for listening, and I look forward to many more proposals like this in the future. We can achieve more working together, and this proposal should be a lesson for all!
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Previous comments for the record
If the SPS DAO doesn't protect its funds any better than this, then we will never succeed.
If this passes then we will pump and I will be gone for sure. I won't stick around for the following crash.
An even worse scenario is we don't pump and have $2.5m less in the DAO and are struggling to regain credibility that we won't waste money in the future. Which of course would be doubtful.
I urge everyone to fully think through why we should vote for this.
We have built a strong community that has faith that we will build a strong game, why rip that up in order to help a few people get liquidity so they can dump the token because they are impatient?
Remember that we aren't all going to "get out". So if you think this is the way forward to get you more money because you are tired of waiting, then realize there are people here with millions of dollars invested too and they are not blind or stupid.
If this passes it would be one of the few things that would make me want to leave. I ask you to ask others how they would feel too, you might find we have very few people left if this actually passed and was implemented.
Just my opinions, I will see what everyone else votes and react accordingly of course.
Well said, Dave!
IMO we are a crypto game first and foremost, that means we need to be where the crypto people are and we will never break into the top 200 projects if we dont get on major exchanges. Axie had like a 9 billion dollar MC last Bullrun, thats like a 7$ SPS if we could do the same but we have to be listed on these major exchanges so its not just our strong community but also folks that speculate on lots of projects with no intention of ever interacting with the ecosystem.
Also Love Ya Dave <3 you're amazing
I dunno how many sps have been burned so far, but a three billion issuance at $6 would be $18 billion, which may be pushing it a bit!
I love ya too Hewitt and normally on the same page. I disagree that we will never break into the top 200 projects if we don't get on the major exchanges. No one will be able to stop us when we develop a system where people are constantly seeking to buy more assets. Our tokenomics are set up properly now, but we still have to create the "desire to buy assets" or better known as more demand.
Its ok we disagree. And thank you for being such a great community member always Hewitt!!!
You know what all the coins in the top 200 have in common? All but a hand full are on either coinbase or binance. The hand full that dont have like 3 pages of other lesser exchanges instead. The number of people that will watch KillerWhales or any other influencer type content and just brainlessly buy the tokens that the "whales" talked favorably about would surprise you but if its 7 steps or only available on an exchange they dont use they will just skip our project. Outside holders arent a bad thing and IMO a higher sps price, for higher earnings, would do more for gaining players than any story or mission Nate can cook up.
I know we are a top 200 project with top 5 developers but we have to be the places and do the things those top 200 projects do to actually climb there. We literally do everything better than 90% of the projects out there but nobody knows about us because we are stuck in a tiny pond. If Hive wasnt listed on Binance it would be sub .01 cent and would be dragging SPL down even further.
I think you are a great guy Hewitt and I love the optimistic view. I hope if it passes it works as you say.
I don't want to be the guy that rains on the parade, that's not really my style. I just think every decision should be viewed from a "what happens if we are right? and a what happens if we are wrong?" point of view.
While I have great hopes for the future and the potential of the game, I see lots of things that could go wrong that delay or derail that potential success if this vote passes. I don't see such risk if this vote doesn't pass.
Obviously more people agree with you than me and that's ok of course. I'm only one person and have been wrong many times in the past.
Hello Dave.
Splinterlands is based on hiveblockchain which is very very niche, which means it is very hard to get NEW exposure, not just for Splinterlands but also for the SPS token.
Sure you can go ahead and say SPS is available plenty, just use pancakeswap or something similair - but lets be honest here... ETH-based games has by far outperformed BSC-based games (and hive-based games for that matter).
I remember back in 2021, where I looked at SPS and compaired it to Axie Infinity. Axie had a $9.8B marketcap at the top, where SPS only had a $155M, and why is that? It is surely not because Axie Infinity is just a better game? In my opinion, that is for sure not the case. I strongly believe it has been all about exposure and opportunity and SPS is STILL lacking behind in that front.
I do believe the timing is right for a tier 1 listing, we are in an ongoing raging bullmarket and Aggroed has just been featured with Splinterlands on Hello labs, which is showing huge upside potentiel! Eyes are on us and new people need a way to invest easily - Making them either go to Hive or use pancakeswap after adding BSC-network to their metamask simply wont do...
Now, I am all for a casual discussion, so if you don't agree with what I am writing, then what are your thoughts on "how to get new eyes/exposure on Splinterlands while also making it easy for them to invest".
Maybe I am missing a key perpespective, so I am looking forward to your (or any others) response. :)
Personally I have never understood the appeal of Axie, as a game or an investment, although the way it enabled a lot of people to earn a living was impressive and inspiring. Its valuation was bonkers though.
I play Splinterlands literally every day and am quite well invested in it, so I have a stake in its future. I am also a binance and coinbase user but don't and wouldn't use them for investing in any small game token. Hive is already on Binance by the way, so there is a fairly simple path to it now.
Axie allowed Filipinas ppl to have an income because it was a ponzi. The game sucks, the team was driven only for short time gains and the ponzinomics were awful.
Splinterlands is not even comparable, it plays in another league of incentives, game theory and tokens flywheel. It is the finest I have seen, and I've seen something on my life.
Good point on the Hive onboarding from Binance, if the newcomer experience is good enough a new player should not need Binance in first instance, only when looking to compose his assets he would need to go outside Splinterlands, tipically to Hive-Engine and eventually reaching Binance. By that time I think we will have more DeFi and other products around. Im pro-proposal but if it doesn't pass the world is not ending.
Hey @xensational I appreciate the thoughtful comment. I responded to Michealb above with a lengthy reply that would be helpful to answer a lot of the things in my mind.
I understand your points but I don't agree with some of your premises. I don't think we are ready for a tier 1 listing yet, both in terms of our ability to retain new players and in our capitalization (we would be giving up too high of a % of our assets to literally just be listed). To me its a hail mary approach (reactive) if done at this time, as opposed to a planned part of a long term growth agenda.
Finally when comparing SPL to other games, then I think many factors are relevant. One is "who is backing them" and what are their plans?
I think you will find big money behind the Axie Project. They succeeded not because of their game, but because the money behind them. We have no such money behind our project. At least not yet.
So until we get the money from the people that are in the "big time", then we will not have the same impact as projects that do have that money. Its just the way the world works. Some people think that big investors jump behind a project because they somehow found it randomly on coinbase, but that's not how it works at all.
The big money that backs a project will never be random about anything. They will extract a lot of value and demand a lot of things to put their money to work. So we won't be attracting that kind of money with a listing no matter how many times people repeat that message on discord today. The players we will attract are the small fries and the momo chasers that want the action. While attracting any kind of new money is fine, I would definitely question the long term value of what we end up with our $2.5m investment.
I appreciate again the thoughtful response and I will live with this vote no matter how it turns out. I definitely don't agree with it at this time, but I do respect that many have a different opinion and support their right to have it.
I appriciate you taking the time to respond Dave.
I don't think this is an easy vote at all, I see alot of upside potential with getting more eyes on Splinterlands itself but I also 100% understand your point of view that it might be too early and that we are not ready yet and that this will just artificially pump bags for those who want to get out at a favorable price.
With that said, I personally think the timing couldn't be better, in the sense that the bullmarket is underway. My thinking is, even though we might not be ready that it is still worth while - alternatively, we end up being ready in 1 year (just an example) for a tier 1 listing but then have hit a bearmarket, which brings very little new money into any ecosystems resulting in a tier 1 listing not being worth 'anything'...
There is a fine line in between for sure!
We will see what happens and no matter what, I wont be mad and I will still be sticking around. :)
We will definitely see and everyone has their own way to view things. That's what I love about the DAO process, people that have stake will decide this. So win or lose, the process will give our community what they wanted. Even if its not what I wanted, I definitely appreciate the process.
I'm glad you see both sides and I'm not upset at all that we are voting differently on it.
ps... regarding your point about you sticking around. I made an opposite statement yesterday and stated I would be selling my assets into such a pump. While that is true for many reasons outlined throughout the post comments, I do want to say that I'm not trying to do anything more than be honest. I'm just one player though, and I appreciate everyone voting for what they think it right, and wouldn't have it any other way!
Dave, you're a stalwart of the community and I respect you for giving it to me straight & not pulling any punches. :-)
A couple things here:
I don't want a major exchange listing because I want exit liquidity. I live in a place where Binance isn't even allowed; I couldn't pass KYC on it if I wanted to. My SPS is going to remain safely staked and in liquidity pools for years to come. I suspect most big whales are diamond hands at this point, and I have faith they will not take advantage in that way. If any do sell out, well, better to flush them out sooner rather than later anyway.
We need to focus on the investment side of the game just as much as the game side of the game. There's nothing inherently wrong with that. The game should offer a little something for everyone. Gamers should have a fun, engaging, solid game to play. But an investment mindset is also welcome. People can stake tokens, rent out their SPS, earn passively from Land, etc. We've got the best of both worlds, and getting on a top tier exchange is a natural extension of that.
I don't expect to convince you though. You just go on being you, Dave, we're lucky to have you!
I live in Houston Texas. Binance is illegal here, however I can still sell all my assets by other means. Not saying I will do it.
Point is listing at what cost? 2M ? 3?
That is selling SPS DAO holds at market. What if market doesn't have the appetite to absorb it? What kind of investment decision is that?
Again getting back to "investing". I have done more investing than most professional money managers do in their entire life, so when you say investment side of the game I say, it is not our job. I like Splinterland company to do some good investment decisions.
1st I miss you in discord <3
2nd Go Houston Texas <3
3rd Respectfully we cant have it both ways where we(the sps holders) control the game(like the bot ban in modern) but then expect an already cash strapped company to shell out 2 mil for a listing.
Also we all know SPL is a top 200 project EASY. We have far better devs and community members than most of the top 200 so whats stopping us? Well all but a handful are on those 2 major exchanges... If you add KuCoin I couldnt find a single top 200 project that wasnt on 1 of the 3.
Thank you for the kind words. I am always here and always watching. It's not that easy to get rid of me ;)
That said, I don't think game makers, SL company can afford the $2M for listing today or in 6 months. That's my point.
But if you or others think DAO can afford it, you would be right. However, I am a practical guy, I know who the stakeholders are and how will they vote. I am telling you this doesn't have the votes to pass
Thank you for the compliment @soy-misterioso :)
I addressed my issues deeper below in michaelb's comment, but I will comment on your two points briefly.
On number 1, I think you will be very surprised at how many players with diamond hands will sell into something they feel is not natural. Its human nature. People can live with things as they are and have "hope" for the future, but if you give them an artificial pumped up price then quite a few will rethink their investment if you change the dynamic by 3x, 5x or even 10x.
Put another way, all of the issues that people are salty about will still exist, like land too slow, leaderboards, bots, etc etc etc. The only difference is people would be much closer to a price they planned on. I'm quite confident the better the result of the pump, the more destabilizing it would be to those diamond hands.
On number 2, I'm all for creating opportunities for investors too. I'm not upset about the implications for the gamers. I'm concerned this will create an artificial situation that will lead to the displacement of long term holders and replaced by short term crypto flippers and a whole new cycle of bagholders.
While this would be great for those that sell, I don't think it would be a great atmosphere soon after the pump gets its hangover. This would be worse than the last time it pumped because most of us still around didn't exit. I believe anything artificial and it will have the opposite reaction this time.
I appreciate the kind words and know you mean well. I also think this might pass even though I hope it doesn't. If it does though, I won't run around and be salty or anything, and in fact I will do quite well personally.
I will simply be disappointed because I feel we are making a big mistake and I believe that once its done it will take many years to undo, and possibly lead to even worse outcomes if things don't go as expected. I think the risk of this going forward is much higher than just the $2.5m from the DAO.
Again thanks for the civil conversation and I appreciate your desire to make things happen (even if we disagree on them).
@davemccoy do you think we should ever get on binance /coinbase?
i think we should for more reasons then one, yeah might have been better to do it when SPS was $1.00 but this proposal lasts for 365 days. With a little luck maybe it wont turn out to be as expensive as currently presented.
Micheal, first thank you for asking. I think getting on binance or coinbase is great if it happened naturally because we meet the qualifications like in the real world exchange listings. The 7 issues I have are:
One (1) spending $2.5 million to be listed on each of their exchanges is a form of payola. I think the whole concept of paying such a large amount to gain access is questionable legally in general.
Two (2) I realize the purpose of this for a lister is to give "value" to the listing company's token, but the reality is most companies our size and scale are simply listing to get a "pump" in price. Some of those companies can translate the attention via a pump into legit customers and participants in their ecosystem; however a large % of those listing companies are simply using this as a liquidity opportunity. (either to raise funds or exit bad investments for their large stakeholders).
Three (3) I'm not happy at all at spending close to 100m SPS to get this kind of exposure. Even if I felt that the first 2 issues could be overcome, I still would be unhappy with using $2.5m in DAO funds to provide a pump so people can exit at a higher price. If they want to exit, then I think that's fine but spending $2.5m of our treasury funds to get them a higher price is not something I feel is good.
Four (4) We still haven't created a user experience that will retain the new customers we get. So I think any marketing expenses at this time are a big waste because we aren't finished with solving the problems we had the last time. We have already shown exactly what happens when we bring a lot of people in and then can't retain them at a reasonable rate. So I would be against spending any money that would result in no net gain over anything more than a short term pop in players.
Five (5) There's no analysis at all by the proposal, which gives us no useful information as to what to expect. We only have arguments such as "this is a new world, go big or go home" or "this is crypto and we have to adapt to the new rules or die". Or worse, "all the other crypto companies are doing it, if we don't then we will never gain acceptance".
On point number 5, if players were told it cost $25m or even $250m, they would still be able to apply the same logic and make the same arguments. So does that mean that any amount requested is ok to spend? Does the DAO not care about being good allocators of their capital?
Six (6) We will lose credibility to the outside world as well as to ourselves if we make a decision based on the 5 points above. If we end up getting 2/3rds to support such a proposal, then it would say a lot about our future in my opinion.
It would say to me that we the DAO don't care if this is ethical, if we are artificially creating a pump , if we waste DAO funds to do it, and if we do not do any actual real analysis. Further it would say to me that many people are looking for an easy exit liquidity event. Obviously that's not everyone, but it would be the only way I could justify such a decision (if I didn't care about the DAO funds and just wanted a higher price to get liquid).
Seven (7) Finally, I think it would rip apart the long term player base that has held this community together for so long through 2 brutal bear markets. I am positive I would sell out if this type of artificial pump occurred, and I'm sure there would be many others that would as well. They might not admit it, but I believe you would have a ton of exits created by this. IMO, this would be a far different community after such an event if it doesn't happen naturally and when the time is proper.
Again I note that I don't mind people selling, I do mind spending our precious DAO funds to get them a better price if they want to leave.
Finally if we have our act together with the new player experience and we are retaining players we get, and we are not giving away SPS at $0.03, but instead its at $1 as you suggested, then I think we would have the funds to take a chance. The reasons are #1 is less of a % of our assets, #2 we would be ready to capitalize on the investment, and #3 by definition we have proved our worth to the investment world because our token went up without any artificial means. That makes us legit imo, and THEN an investment into the bigtime would carry the proper credibility. (its why many small companies stay private before listing in the real world stock market exchanges)
So Michael, I could deal with some of these negatives if they weren't so many. But in my eyes this is clearly not the right time to do this, and I would be scared of what will happen as a result.
ps... I had some people question me about why I would "threaten to quit" if it passes. I'd like to draw the distinction versus people that routinely throw "fits" and try to extort a vote their way. . I'm not mad at anyone if it passes, nor will I lose out if it happens. In fact I think in 2024 I will make far more if this passes. I won't gaslight people and taunt them if it passes, nor will I be salty or sour.
I will simply be disappointed that it passed because I believe I know the ramifications, and for me those ramifications will be a change in what I do every day and what I've cared about for the last 6 years. But I won't be salty or negative, I will still wish everyone the best and hope I was wrong so everyone after me will still do really well.
A lot of good points Dave.
Could it be as simple as give the DAO the authority to spend $ on a listing but not until certain criteria met? We have 365 days to run this.
edit: I dont understand how exchanges work and why they are able to charge the $ they do, but apparently they do.
I agree that would make a lot more sense. If the criteria were conditional, then we could alleviate a lot of uncertainty and make a more informed decision.
And the time idea is a good one too, we need to do it on our schedule as opposed to rushing something through just because it seems like a good thing at the moment.
ok so where from here?
Here's my thoughts Micheal:
If we pass it as is, then I doubt there will be much negotiation. Here's why:
The people pushing hard on this seem very motivated and any change to it will likely lead them to lose some support.
The people against this will not be angry, but instead start mapping out their reactions based upon how they think it will play out.
If we don't pass as is, then I think it will depend on how close it is.
If its close then I think both sides will try to find the reasonable people on each side to craft some compromises. Whether a compromise can be found will depend on the group of people involved doing the negotiations.
I do think there's a lot of people that are pushing for this for various reasons, but I also think the people against it (like me) are concerned for valid reasons. So if we can work together in a mature manner, then I think a gap of 5 to 10% swing either way would be possible.
If its not close to passing, ie greater than 15% away, then I think in order to get this done then there could still be negotiations, but I think it would take a serious effort by the supporters to understand why the large voters have objections (and address them).
I also think if fails and its not close, it would be a good idea to get input from Yabapmatt on the topic as well, so that we can understand his point of view too and make sure we aren't wasting our time.
I personally don't mind us talking about it and think it would be possible to find scenarios where it would make sense. I don't think all those that will vote "no" here would always vote "no". So I do think there's a chance for a compromise, but my belief at this time is we will likely need to see the vote finish before we know how best to approach a compromise.
ok. So with the proposal in its current form i'm gunna vote NO.
ok cool. I hope the proponents reach out to you for your thoughts, and feel free to contact me anytime as well about the topic. I think something as big as this should have serious discussions.
Thanks again for taking the time to discuss Micheal! And have a terrific weekend too :)
I'd be happy to make some adjustments to the pre-proposal if you feel there are some tweaks that can be made to get some current "no" or "on-the-fence" people to vote "yes".
If you come up with some concrete recommendations before the pre-proposal period is finished, let me know via another comment here.
i just read your updates provided - nice!
So i think this will fail if the 2.5 million of it has to come from SPS at 3c. At 10c i think it will pass (or just offer stable coins if we have the available budget)
Another thought would be to take out coinbase have only Binance listing on the proposal?!
On a side note possibly looking at running another proposal for the DAO to sell off SPS at 10c to build up exchange funds. These funds could then be added to help pay for this. clayboyn has some good wording on this :)
Thanks for your input. I'll give it some thought and decide if I want to update the proposal again.
I do agree that selling SPS at 10c feels better than selling at 3c, but we don't know how long it will take for it to get back to 10c. Could be quite a while. However some separate proposal to lay out a strategy for converting funds does sound reasonable.
ok , i edited my text a few times so hopefully you read the last cut lols
Hi @davemccoy I'm not following your logic on point #7 where you say.
"Seven (7) Finally, I think it would rip apart the long term player base that has held this community together for so long through 2 brutal bear markets. I am positive I would sell out if this type of artificial pump occurred, and I'm sure there would be many others that would as well. They might not admit it, but I believe you would have a ton of exits created by this. IMO, this would be a far different community after such an event if it doesn't happen naturally and when the time is proper.
Again I note that I don't mind people selling, I do mind spending our precious DAO funds to get them a better price if they want to leave."
I mean you just said that you were going to sell and therefore would be included in that group exiting because it's at a higher price point but then you go on to say you don't want to provide an opportunity for people to leave at a higher price point although you just said that's the very reason you would leave. I mean otherwise you would remain. Am I misunderstanding your logic here?
first things have changed since there has been changes made to the proposal.
But I think where you are missing things is I don't think the DAO should be spending money to give anyone (include me) and exit opportunity. I would've sold if we created an artificial situation where we couldn't have recovered (meaning flawed proposal).
But now with the changes made, and also discussing with others options to addressing another one of my concerns, then I'm comfortable enough to vote for this as its clear a lot of people want to see a listing on Binance.
I appreciate your response and just re-read the amendments. Also listened to your entire conversation with Aftersound. One step forward I would say!
I agree. And thank you for the responses too Shaddrak!
Let it pump, and swap $10m dollars worth into stable coins during the pump? DAO ends up far superior than before…. No brainer especially when you say you know itll go up.
I doubt the DAO will be able to sell $10 million worth before it dumped. So while I think it will go up, the DAO would have a very hard time monetizing anything as the dump would quickly follow a pump.
Dave, how else are we going to expose Splinterlands to capital? Im all for other suggestions. Capital is NOT moving to HIVE blockchain…. Unless you can show me differently. We are not getting VC funding. Our chain has failed to innovate in ways that attract capital in this space. Therefore it is up to us to do it…. We can continue to improve the game at a slow pace…. Thats great and all but unfortunately the best product doesnt always win out just by virtue of being the best. In this industry, youve got to fight hard for visibility…. The “sit back and wait” mentality will lead to our eventual demise. I cant allow that to happen.
I think your heart is in the right spot, but I don't believe this is the way. I have given many reasons why in this post as replies, particularly in the post reply to michealb.
Its ok if we disagree and its even ok if this passes without me. If the community feels that a hail mary approach has to happen, then it will vote this way.
I personally am not in a rush and feel that we will have no trouble attracting investors when we give them something attractive to purchase. But don't forget that we daily get reminders of all of our flaws by Mavs in discord, and these will not go away just because we get a Tier 1 listing.
To take this approach that its now or never is very risky in my opinion. I can understand why people want to do that, 6 years is a long time to be in a situation (even one that has done as well as Splinterlands).
I respect that you are doing what you feel is right though and as I've said to others, if this happens then I will make our really well too. I just understand fully what it means for me.
No matter what way this goes I will always want to see the people here be as happy as possible, I appreciate the experience and have much respect for many people on both sides of this vote!
Not many people will see what you're saying here but I do. If this passed I'd sell everything into the pump because I would fully expected a long, slow, and painful decline to follow. It's what happens to almost every token that gets listed on Coinbase. Quick pump followed by a long decline.
SPS was designed so that the price would match its in game utility. If SPS price moves meaningfully higher than its utility demands, we would have a quick pop of everything in the game followed by a very long hangover as we dealt with the imbalances the pop caused.
You absolutely get it @imno ... I love that you do! Thanks for putting it in better words that maybe will help others understand it too!
It's not about whether we pump or not. SPL needs a T1 exchange to reach a greater audience whether u think we're ready or not!
At the rate the team is going, they'll never be ready!
Look at the childish responses from azircon and gank... quit if we get listed? I say good riddance, less toxicity in the community. I see u feel the same? LMAO
We don't know the price, our bloody DAO manager hasn't spoken to any exchange representatives recently. It just shows where he stand, in addition to this proposal not even being DAO sponsored. He's suppose to be NEUTRAL, not just listen to people he think are whales or important!
We don't even have to talk about new players! Existing players are discouraged from investing more with their gains from elsewhere because SPL is falling behind other games and Dapps..FAST. No one is going to be interested in investing in a (mini) card game on a dead chain like HIVE! Why would a new player risk playing Splinterlands when other games are on Binance? Why would someone try Splinterlands when other games now have larger communities being on EVM compatible chains?
If you truly believe this game can 100x organically, whatever price now would be a drop in the bucket! Do u think SPL can afford a listing when it's ready when the market outgrows and other games/dapps outpace SPL? Any "HIGH" price now would probably be much HIGHER in a bull market.
I have never seen projects die after getting listed on Binance, only projects being delisted due to lack of development! Matt needs to seek funds from elsewhere and not just the DAO! Not funds from another card sale brought forward!
I agree with you Dave, thank you as always for your insight and effort towards making this a better game and better crypto project!
My simple dumb thoughts from a salty German are - as long as we can not manage to create fun around the game itself (not mentioning new disasters of pre sales push and shove stuff in the ecosystem here) we alway will lag behind (we do not get new players, and i give it one season to evaluate new ranked pays off or improves palyer experience, it is boring, even SPL fanboys these days are not happy with tournaments and ranked - while i do expect changes on ranked +20 stuff related to opponents at least), even in bull times we seem to be the only gaming token that has no or if at all small increase - i am not repeating why i thing this is the case (not related to DAO itself though)
no sure how you voted Uwe. But I do agree that we still have a ways to go to retain players. We are making progress, but until we get there, we aren't there.
did not vote, as i did not vote any proposal since a while :-)
The main mission of the DAO is not "protect" the "funds" as if we are talking about a widows's endowment, is to promote the game with the best of their ability and resources.
Of course the main reason for listing in Binance is to promote the game and allow newcomers to easily onboard Splinterlands, suggesting that this is promoted by whales looking for exit liquidity is a really cheap gaslightning, is literally the opposite; whales are doing this psyop (to ruin and mud the proposal) looking desperately not to lose their grip on the game, which is sad and annoying 50%/50%. But rest assured that everybody is now aware of who wants what and why.
And opening and closing the comment with threatens of leaving the game...
I don't want to get personal (I don't know you at all and there is no reason why you are not an excellent person) so I just will say, noone is more important than the whole. I will be happy if some disgruntled whale leaves and dumps their SPS bag and drag us to 1 cent. The sooner they leave, the better for the game long term.
My 2 decs.
ok cool. You didn't want to get personal, but you did :D
Its ok, you can think what you want!
I personally would have like this limited to just Coinbase and not include Binance. That's because Binance not only has a bad history with the law but also if anyone really wants to they can just use pancake swap.
Personally I think I would prefer Coinbase as well, just because that seems like the easiest way to onboard people into the ecosystem from the US. Crypto doesn't get much simpler than Coinbase really, and if we want to be a mainstream game we need a mainstream way to invest in it as well.
But given how strict regulation is in the US, I don't know how realistic it is to pass the high bar needed to get on Coinbase. Binance makes a great additional option for that reason (though then US people are excluded, so yeah there are trade-offs).
I worded this proposal so that the funds can be used for one or the other (or both, but I doubt it's enough for both). I trust Clayboyn to judge which has the best chance and offers the best opportunity for us.
I would hope we would go for CB first, Binance second.
I am torn with the exchange i know how binance operates with pumps I profited off them for 2 years made a lot of money on launchpad but that's not my goal with spl as I'm a long term investor and I'm not just saying it I own stock so I am a long term investor my payout depends on the success overall of everything not just a pump of sps and a quick exit on that. My best trade ever was in BNB and launchpad was the main reason bc i was able to catch the 10x short term pumps and dump them which is what i fear will be sps if they get listed. i don't know how or if that is happening much anymore bc i have not been able to bypass there kyc yet but will be shortly bc i do not believe the govt has the right to tell me what to invest in or who to invest with but that's besides the point lol. I can see how it could be good but i can see how it can be catastrophic depending. My stake is low right now so my vote currently is not of much meaning but i will vote what ever people who are here for the longer term vote for as that is the group I'm in.
I think SplinterLands has to attract people, we need players and new money for the game and for what has been here for years.
And let the SplinterLands team know that this is the last opportunity and chance, don't waste it, deliver a good game to the community!!!
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STOPTo support your work, I also upvoted your post!
Thank you soy-misterioso for proposing this. I believe this is the best thing that could ever happen for splinterlands. Most of my reward chests are around 2 sps and I just don't care about earning 6 cents. I've slowly been exiting my splinterlands position but a listing on binance would definitely make me rethink my strategy
The budget and the spending is insane
I think worth a vote on but the DAO has less than $0.6million stables (https://peakd.com/splinterlands/@sps.dao.report/sps-dao-treasury-report-2024-03-10--11924197-20240310t220028z)
The other $2.4m will need to come from SPS sales. That is like 80 million SPS, IF SPS is $0.03. This would surely crash SPS, meaning more and more would need to be sold, we don't have the liquidity to take so much selling. Trading volume 24 hours prior to this post is only $230,000.
It would need to be negotiated with stable coins and perhaps a bundle of SPS with the expectation of an increase in value once listed
Where can I see how numbers mentioned in the post stack up against what is currently in the DAO and projected to be in the DAO when SPS stops being issued ?
We need such a listing.
Where does this $2.5M number come from? Is it something that's been determined as sufficient based on input from Binance/Coinbase? Is it an educated guess? If it's an educated guess, are there priors or some data to back up why that would be the right ballpark?
Also, if a listing was secured for that sum of money, what other conditions/guarantees/promotions/activities would be in place, if any, to ensure that it's a good use of money? For example, you could imagine Binance having SPS as an option under Binance Earn, letting users get access to native Splinterlands staking APR via Binance vs. in-game. This could be great for users who only want to invest, not play the game or use Hive (and I think there are plenty of those users and that's fine IMO). Binance would generate the returns with native staking and distribute a portion to their users.
someone who is anonymous wants to transfer money out of the dao. it's getting crazier and crazier here!
what's more, in the last listing proposal, some of the money was simply misappropriated. now, under anonymous names, we certainly can't expect anything better...
and we have to start thinking like investors and not like gamers? sorry, but who shit in your brain, people here have been thinking like investors and not like gamers for years. or tell me one change in the last few years that has helped gaming more than the ecosystem? there is none! on the contrary, gaming has often even gotten worse for the ecosystem.
or let's put it this way, the changes were prioritized to help the ecosystem. but unfortunately everything failed because these investor thinkers can't admit to being on the wrong track, because if in a game the game gets worse then the ecosystem doesn't help either. and so every change that harms the gameplay will at most provide a short pump and then it goes even lower than before. but hey keep screwing around with your shit.
but admitting mistakes is probably not compatible with people's egos. and that's why they always remain stupid, because if you can't admit mistakes and always look for excuses or other people to blame, you obviously can't learn from these mistakes either.......
I'm voting for this to go through to a full vote of SPS stakers, even though I don't think it's the right move. If it goes to full vote I'll vote with Yaba.
what happened to this proposal, which has passed almost 1 year ago, nothing happened??https://peakd.com/@spl.council/sps-proposal-allocate-up-to-30-million-sps-to-pursue-exchange-listings
I believe that proposal expired without the funds being used, as no good opportunities actually came along.
The reputation of these two busy exchanges is still very much under review by SEC regulators. There is also evidence of these exchanges blocking withdrawals which is another concern, therefore I suggest no. Too many potential government sanctions incoming. Navigate SPS to less turbulent waters.
CoinBase down again
Binance Blocks
For less than 2.5 million couldn't you run adverts on city transport/media globally instead? According to Coingecko report Immutablex has 95% active addresses and HIVE without much advertisement not to shabby at 77% active addresses. Marketing needn't be so injurious to the DAO.
CoinGecko GameFi report
Plus it wouldn't make any sense passing this after shooting down the measly $60000 FlowDesk marketing annual service fee. Last year I voted for FlowDesk contract but the proposal lost by a landslide of players disgusted about the high fees 🤣.
Our beloved DAO project manager-in-chief who tabled that old proposal also simultaneously socially distanced himself from it with these classic words "For posterity, I'm pretty neutral on this topic in general."
https://peakd.com/spsproposal/@clayboyn/contract-flowdesk-for-sps-market-making-services#@akumalate/re-clayboyn-s3xzwg
A positive outcome for this 2.5 million speculation to join these two changing platforms is not even guaranteed by this proposal
"The intent is to simply authorize a budget for the SPS DAO Project Manager to negotiate with and not a guarantee of results."
Your voting to allow the project manager access to a whooping 2.5 million of DAO resources for upto a year, with an explicitly stated no guarantee of even getting on to these exchanges. Seems a little over generous.🤑
Hello Splinterlands! looks like you just approved your first zero performance based banker bonus.
The funds cannot be used for any other purpose than getting a listing with one of those two exchanges. If such a deal can't be negotiated, then the funds will not be spent.
" it is a manageable expense and will not bankrupt the SPS DAO" these are your words. Sounds like petty cash to me. Until you edit your proposal this is nothing but a 365 day glorified expense account. Will there even be a visible weekly audit trail? Not that one is entirely necessary given this huge sum of money and the crowd here approving this, just a suggestion.
I applaud your enthusiasm for SPS appreciation and I hope you can install more budgetary restraint measures with full transparency?
SPS should be listed on Coinbase or Binance!
Amendment + amendment + amendment = Just not happening any time soon. Pointless voting on this.
'Go big or go home' turned into a pussy cat of a proposal
Hi @soy-misterioso @clayboyn I propose not limiting the listing to just Binance, as they are exiting the North American markets, it is no longer as accessible as other exchanges. On top of that Binance and Coinbase have the most expensive listing fees by far and scrutinize projects much more than others. You can still get one or two Tier 1 and/or high Tier 2 exchanges for the same price or less of ONE Binance or Coinbase listing. I would recommend reserving exchange possibilities to the top 5 most accessible/useful exchanges.
1.) Binance
2.) OKX
3.) Coinbase
4.) HTX
5.) Kucoin
I personally think Kucoin is the best bang for your buck. It is very popular for both North American & Asian markets as apposed to Binance, OKX and HTX which are more Asian focused. Depending on the overall costs I would select Kucoin and one Asian dominant exchange like OKX or HTX. That provides broader access to users and covers our bases.
Bybit was excluded from the above list as it is primarily used for leverage trading.
When did the 270 million get unallocated from the team amount i remember some for the nightmare packs but the rest? Guess that answers my question about when im getting the remaining payout from that hope it goes to do something beneficial if its not going to be coming my way or my little portion lol
I would say I’m disappointed that this proposal is going to pass but with the amendments requiring NPE and Validators to be completed within 365 days there is more than a good chance one or both of these requirements are not met and the funds will never be eligible for use. This proposal is basically dead from the start and I can go back to sleep with hope that these funds can be put to better use in the future when the game is appealing to new users. With a capture rate of 2-5% we shouldn’t be focusing out getting the Splinterlands name out there just for people to be turned off by the game with a bad first impression.