RE: SPS Governance Proposal - Adjust Rewards Based on Card Level
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I think that if a player (or should we nowadays say "the bot of a player"?) is skillful enough to succeed in a certain league, they should also be able to earn the rewards promised by this league. Actually, if someone with cards of a lower level reaches the same rating like a player with cards of higher levels that is an indicator that they play the game rather well. I see no reason to punish good players.
Yes, I see a huge problem caused by bots, but in my opinion to 'punish' skillful players is not the solution of that problem.
Furthermore, some cards are simply not much better on higher than on lower levels (think at the chicken), and therefore I see no reason to put artificial pressure on uplevelling every single card.
The thing is that the reality has nothing to do with skill. It's just accounts with level 1 cards playing against other accounts with level 1 cards over and over and slowly but surely moving up the leagues.
Rewards need to be based on a combination of skill and assets. Skill will lead to a higher win rate which is one of the biggest factors in the amount of rewards, but for the assets part all we really had was collection power which is too easily manipulatable.
This aims to fix the asset part of things. If you want to earn the rewards, you have to have the cards. This will be a huge benefit to the entire ecosystem and everyone who owns assets in it.
Yes, in lower leagues that might be correct.
In higher leagues I can talk for myself: as I am using a pure gold foil account I cannot max all cards because that is simply too expensive (maybe for non GF accounts that's somewhat easier). However, I can use some near max level cards quite effective (also some cards like the chicken or the albatross don't even require high levels at all to be very helpful) and normally always reach Champion II. In that case (at least if played manually) I call that skills.
I wouldn't consider that change to be "terrible" but I am not convinced it to have an overall positive effect (I might think about it again, though).
Yes you're right that it's different in higher leagues vs lower leagues. In higher leagues it's much more skill-based and this particular issue is mostly found in the lower leagues.
Overall though, the general concept here is to require more assets to earn the max potential rewards. So the fact that some cards like the chicken don't require high levels is a bad thing in my opinion - there should always be benefits for leveling up cards, so this mechanism helps to provide that. Now there will be more reason to level up those cards.
For gold foil cards, I think typically the GF card bonus will outweigh the reduction from this change, so they will still be a net positive in most cases, and also hopefully this will provide more incentive for them to be purchased/rented even at the high prices.
Nice to see that you take the time to answer to questions and concerns so thoroughly!
As you are 'here' I take the opportunity to let you know what is my only real worry concerning the future of Splinterlands (I think all other problems should be anyhow solvable). I fear that bots will completely dominate the game sooner or later (and to a certain degree already do, even in the highest leagues - you might ask @jacekw for confirmation).
I wrote about that topic here, but since then the problem even increased.
I understand that the philosophy of blockchain and decentralization makes it difficult to take any effective measures against bot dominance.
I also know the view point of the Splinterlands team to be 'bot agnostic'.
Nevertheless, I would really apreciate you to read my bot post in case your time allows it.
(Of course then you could also answer in Discord instead of on chain if you prefer that.)
I read your post and I agree with you about bots. If they can beat chess and go they can beat Splinterlands (which is currently much simpler than chess or go). I have two comments on that:
The plan is to make the game more and more involved with more player input over time. I know it's still a while out, but the item and spell cards that are part of the land expansion are a good example of that. That type of thing will increase the complexity for bots by many orders of magnitude and hopefully give human players a big advantage, at least for a while, by which time hopefully we can add even more things to the game. The advantage we have over chess or go is that chess and go don't change and add new features, but Splinterlands does (it's just been very slow, but will be getting faster).
I'm not sure it's necessarily a bad thing if bots are ultimately better than human players. Many people will still just enjoy playing the game and they will be matched up against opponents at a similar skill level - especially as the game grows and there are more players at all levels. So at the highest levels people may use bots and compete on the best bot software (which is also kind of cool), and then at other levels human players can compete against other players (whether bot or human) at their skill level so they can enjoy the game and work on improving. So I'm not sure that it's necessarily bad or good - it's just different and has its own pros and cons.
Nice reply!
The first part sounds promising.
Concerning the second part:
Yes, actually, I am also fascinated by some chess programs, 'masterpieces' of software and (partly) AI.
And I also respect people who will write better and better Splinterlands bots in future (yes, that's indeed also "cool"). :)
A pure bot championship would be actually fascinating, too: who is able to write the best, most sophisticated Splinterlands bot? In chess there are competitions only for software ...
Especially in chess, bots are great tools to practice one's skills, analysing games and learning to understand chess better.
(Interesting also for Splinterlands could be the idea that some chess programs are having certain modes in which they intentionally don't always play the best possible move to make the games against human opponents more exciting and variable.)
However, one difference is that in chess (or GO) in (human) tournaments and public servers bots are strictly forbidden. That means human players are never forced to play against a bot if they don't want. They can intentionally challenge a chess program (if they really think they would be able to beat 'God') :-) or just practice with it, but in human tournaments they can be sure to face human opponents only.
Concerning Splinterlands that could mean, there could be different kinds of competitions in future, for example "bot only", "human only" and "mixed". Then at least everybody would have a choice. And I know very well that even if 'we' would try to implement these different kinds of tournaments it would be very difficult to verify that a 'human' is really a 'human'.
I agree tournaments and guild brawls no bots is cool but a high investment account should be able to earn all day in normal battles for ranked rewards and i dont make as much if i were to actually play it all day but i come back to play when im in the leauge i want i dont want to sit thought the lower leauges when i want to work on my guild project to help ppl get into the game plus make some money with it to. Like i cant do that with out my high level bots, There will be alot of things that dissapear if those go away like get banned not if they become obsolete then i neeed to deal with it and find another way
Why should anybody play themselves, if bots do the same without wasting time and energy? In the end with this vision Splinterlands might become an inhabited ghost town where bots play against bots. A pure staking mechanism but no game anymore.
If the daily games are too many for a human, just make them less.
You also don't tell a soccer player like Lionel Messi to play 5 soccer games per day. :)
Create conditions within the game which humans can fulfil.
I wrote a longer post about it some time ago.
There not i can play beter and have a better win rate but when im not playing i want more money with my level of investment in the game im a investor first now but also a player bc i like it which is why i invested in the company in the first place in 2019.
Yes, we are all investors (I am also one since 2018), but in my opinion long term every investor earns most if the game is developing well and attracts as many as possible satisfied new players.
And the big majority of human players prefers to play against other humans ...
100% why im dong what im doing with my project to grow it
On point 1 and 2
Would it make more sense to wait for land to implement then propose this change?
Depending on how far land is from implementation it could be factored in then.
On the first point, would it be a good idea to commit to something like 1 new ruleset per month? And maybe deprecate some older ones in favor of newer ones after a while to not make it super complicated for the human players after a while.
That should give bots a hard time keeping up. The question is, would we tolerate the rapid changes better, as humans?
And a bot say like mine with a lot of cards and power will be able to compete while i cant play and give ppl a opponentin diamond and champ
But doesn't it really just punish you for not having a leveled up card rather than rewarding you for having it? Meaning will the rewards for a given league increase from where it is now?
Punishing vs rewarding in these cases are really just a matter of perspective. Yes, players using lower level cards will get less than they received previously if this change goes into effect, but really they were getting more than is sustainable for their cards in the past and it's just being "fixed" now.
But from the general perspective - not comparing it to a flawed previous system - the higher level your cards, the more rewards you earn - so you are rewarded for getting higher level cards.
Thanks for the reply. What aspect is unsustainable? Is it the rewards paid out or is it fluctuations in the card market?
Its acceptible to have two bots with significant cp right i just want to stay on the same page as the message going out from everyone. Also my bots will partially be used to onboard players etc so i see that as a possitive effect of it and lets me earn while i do that stuff. Not doing the bs level one lol mine are maxed or close.
I thought the fixed pool of rewards ensured sustainability, but I'm interested in learning why that is not the case, meaning we need to implement something like this. I love learning, so thanks for your insightful responses!
In general a good idea.
What if:
All cards have the same starts from Level 1 to Max,
Skill becomes more skillbased,
Only rewards change.
Level 1 no rewards,
level Max = max rewards.
That would be a very drastic change, but would remove bots, special if the curve would be right.
Now the question would be, are investors sad or happy with it?
I mean on the other hand "delegate cards" would be for example for the best to earn.
What would be the reason to earn?
Yeah here everything becomes difficult :D
Was a spontan idea, but maybe something like this ( less drastic) could be a thing.
I would agree level one
but the top tier levels diamond to champ shouldnt be so drastic but deff have a incentive to do it. And where can i go to try and get SPTs vote lowered other than buying half the SPT lol 20 million is crazy. I can get it but no one else can and the cartel controls it all.
play with high level cards could access the rewards chests,
i mean at some point the walls are to high for new players and the game will die.
The game has not the "fun factor" of a high class game. So it needs to be a competitive game.
If this becomes impossible to be,
what game is it at the end?
Pay to play to earn?
I get diamond with the bot arch a and b they cost 30 to 1000 for a but if you used a 30 at work you will come home to earnings ppl need to be able to let it play 24/7 and games would dry up.
In higher leagues it is part of the fun in the game and skill of the player to craft your deck in a cost effective way. This proposal will remove that. May I suggest to remove the champ limit or make it less impactful by for example giving 1 or 2 cards per match that are exempt at diamond / champ because in the current system we see no low level farming at champ so there is no reason to solve anything. To put this proposal as a blanket over all leagues will take away a fun element of the game, and reduce the influence of skill/knowledge of the player.
You cant play 24/7 and I like to earn 24/7 im a investor and player removing my ability to earn 24/7 will not be good for many players alot will dissapear then you have no one developing or creating a large project like im doing bc they cant fund it and if you cant beat my bot then the skill is not there. Im better than my bot but im working 20 hours a day on my project i think i deserve a bit of pay.
I agree the botting to leech rewards needs to stop with bots that have not invested its not a suck rewards from ppl investing in the game free for all lol.
GF were cheap last i looked
But the easiest way if in your budget is but alot of cards lol. I know it cant be done always
In general it is simple, make the game more complex + add random factors.
For now it is a bot game, and i see no reason why this would change.
The most simple thing would be to "disvalue" low-effort bots with an additional layer of complexity.
With this change in place, it could also remove the general MMR system and use the cards for access.
Why wasting time in lower leagues with higher level cards?
You match the cards, you can join the league.
As long as it doesnt efffect equipt bots like mine with 10-30K in them
Like that skip the leauge to your leauge
I totally agree, but if thats the case maybe bring back guaranteed elements for every match or something. Cuz now its just really expensive to play Splinterlands at the level that you want to play at, compared to the past (or you just get a lower ROI, which doesn't matter, except it does a little bit).
Ya i agree should have something to keep ppl who jsut cant seem to get there maybe a group who is voluntiered to help those ppl with scholarships like i could support one. I wouldnt mind especially with NFTY they will cut that work down
I run it as a business I have debt on it and in order to keep playing and developing my business kinda need to make money and work at the same time. I do love playing but i cant do it and be susstainable all the time with out the bots. I have put the money in the game im a investor in the game I have every part. So i agree low level moochers go but dont mess with high level bots who put in the money for it. I starteed grinding with nothing ppl can do it they just dont take the time. I would spend all weekend grinding to get my account where it is
It does matter lol im both a gamer and have fun but i need to make money to lol so im all for this seeparating the leeches out and letting ppl run higher level bots like mine. I consolidated to a rental account and a bot account which i also always playi n tournaments and brawls my self not using the bot. I just use archmage a for extra income.
Then the point system is borked.
If a League of Legends player with a "true" ability of Silver 1 is on Silver 1, he can play literally unlimited matches but he will stay at Silver 1, as he'll win 50% of the matches and lose 50% of the matches. Small swings obviously happens, but this hypotetical player will end up in the same place as his teoretical, true ability. That's what a MMR system is meant to do.
If in Splinterlands, bot accounts full of lvl 1 cards can just climb through the leagues by beating other bot accounts running the same bot software, something's not right. If they're at the same ability level (eg same bot software) and using the same (or really similar) cards, they should just keep wasting their time against each other, without climbing the leagues.
Back to the LoL example: if you take 1000 "true" Silver 1 players and put them against each other, after thousands of matches they'll all still be at Silver 1, as that's their correct ranking. They can't climb if they're not actually playing better.
My bot climbs to champ sometimes but i invested alot in it
llike 65K between both
The low level no investment bots should go
I disagree, I've always played games where I "fight up hill" I can put money in a game but no where near what others can. I've always made up for this with skill, learning the game and counters. I don't consider myself the best player but above average. I have a lot of max bronze cards, some max silver cards for water and 3 max silver summoners. I fight my way into gold and the frustration of playing against maxed out deck because of the last proposal which said my $1000 deck isn't good enough to earn rewards. I don't rent, overall I feel renting stagnates your account and stops growth.
So I break into gold and can beat players in gold with max out decks who aren't skilled and then get crushed by some that are skilled and some that just have max cards for gold.
I put 7 grand into this game this year after I found it in Feb but I made the decision to get set a baseline passive income so most of that went into 2 nodes. I bought 181 RW packs I'm still trying to open.
I've put money into this game but as I play I'm still contently told the skill I have isn't good enough because you haven't spent enough.
This proposal I understand what it is trying to accomplish and do, I actually somewhat support the idea before the massive shift of SPS rewards to the top end. There has to be a way for yes skilled players to earn without having to drop 5 - 10 thousand dollars ever 6 months. Most of the long term players haven't put that money in (yes there are some if not plenty who have) but overall most of them are where they are because of when they found the game.
Aggy keep saying he wants to fix spawn point in-equality but splinterlands lands keeps making it's own spawn point in-equality overall if you weren't here pre-airdrop or I'd say even alpha / beta the amount of money you have is massive more than what "top" level players have had to put in.
The tournament during splinterfest showed when a bronze player was able to compete in the tournament there is a difference between skill and having enough money to buy the cards.
Gotta have both in this model and this game you can earn in just may need to take a risk now compared to earlier when it ws cheapter. I just added 25K to my ourchases. Need to invest to or all the ppl who did would leave u with worthless cards bc if we all dump then there is no money left i deff dont want my favorite game to die plus the money time and now work im putting into my own projects for it with out are funding nothing would be made
Never said you didn't but I had a plan that keep getting nerfed from when I entered the game. When I entered SPS was over .12 so I've lost 1/2 my value there but I've manage to invest right to still be able to get 2 node. I don't have 15 - 30 grand to get a max untamed deck so I'll never be able to complete one for modern. My plan was to set up passive income and work toward CL and Rebellion when it comes out but even 181 RW packs doesn't touch what I need for silver let a lone gold and that is around $750. I have some skill in the game and still learning so I'm "okay" with the struggle fight up hill against maxed out decks in each league which they are there and most of what I fight anymore since the last proposal. While I try to build because I wasn't here in the beginning. Prior to the last proposal this one was needed now... most of the decks I fight in silver and gold are maxed for silver at least and a lot for gold.
Me to i want spt bc its bs that one org controls it.And i will soon have sure backing to be able to take it and force the vote to lower it and then change the token and distirbute to all bc they are just raking it in i have alot at one poitn and i was able to get like 50 bucks a day
mine is odd one doesnt apply to many but I was awarded 2.5 sps per common uniit so i got 25K and sold then bought from .2 on
If you held on to it price doesnt matter look at market cap
Total diff picture
Did you think about combining to one max then branching
packs are under two bucks CL prob a good buy and nodes they will be a serious good buy in my opinion only there under 2K im going to be all over those today
If you need a account to play a higher level join are organization we will be doing a live stream to open 10000 packs with other givaways to next week to show what were doing and why. Kind of explain how it will bring new players and help them grow then come out with more than they had ready to compete.
I can buy a gold deck for that cheap
THIS!
I get so tired of hearing about/reading people being told things like this.
The value of a person's collection can vary immensely. Just because someone's name isn't purple in Discord, doesn't mean they haven't invested a substantial amount of money.
People need to stop assuming that every Silver collection is worth $47 and understand that a good collection can easily be worth 5 figures $$$$$.
!BEER
My partner is on the leaderbaords renting cards she kicks ass so it its possible you just need skill and say a guild that will support some rentals
Exactly my accounts passed into 6 figures this year and its jsut bc i have the capital and love the game also want to be in on all parts like runi, td, gls, sps especially, nodes and land. There will be ways to get this stuff by winning nd grinding i did it before i put money in i started with nothing back then. My accoutn was worth 40K at the peak sold all of it then bougth back.
View or trade
BEER.Hey @cimmeron, here is a little bit of
BEERfrom @torran for you. Enjoy it!Do you want to win SOME BEER together with your friends and draw the
BEERKING.That's not true in my case. Nonetheless, what about this? Each game has a pot based on the total level of cards played. So level cards would essentially lower the pot. The winner takes the whole pot. It encourages players to level up because 1. It's easier to win with leveled up cards. 2. A player with leveled up cards will earn more over time.
This rewards good play which will make the game more fun and allows a mechanism to reward purchases.
hello sir @yabapmatt .
Can't we just remove the rewards and rating increase from, for example a gold-league battle between 1bcx vs 1bcx?
Sometimes I cannot find an appropriate level summoner to rent because there's nothing available to rent or the ones available are grossly overpriced.
So if I'm in Gold, and have to use a level 1 legendary summoner, I can still win (of course not always) but then my rewards would be significantly lower with this proposal.
I know there are many 1bcx bots in gold (I have some too), so I'm okay with losing my reward/rating if I manually win against fellow low level decks (bot or not) in Gold. But if I beat a high level (gold-capped) deck, then I feel it's unfair to get punished.
There likely will be more when nifty is integrated with many of the larger projects like mine were goign to rent a lot of cards to.
It's been a while you haven't played if you think that it's still the case.
Competition has be increasing every season for the past like 4 seasons.
I spent thousands in SPL and it takes me half the season to get out of silver sometimes.
I used to be able to get to gold with low level cards, now you have to have a maxed deck to be able to be competitive in gold because everybody is playing maxed decks.
Decks might not be maxed in silver but rewards are so low that doesn't even makes sense to punish players that don't have a great silver deck. It's a tax on a tax.
We're not even talking about rewards in bronze.
Sincerely, do be able to make that game any profitable (with still a bit of luck) is to play in diamonds at least.
Thos need to go
in a game, punish players with skill, such an idea can only come from someone who has no idea about gaming and only thinks about his money, sorry but we should not destroy the balance between game and investors even more!
No thats not true I think about both I play and I bot my accounts when i cant bc I need to fund my self and the stuff im working on and im not botting shit acccounts. I treat this like a fun thing and a business i borrrowed money to get where I am maybe if you want to get on that level you might have to take a risk. Not advice just saying you cant get anywhere that rewards you with no risk and if you couldnt take my bot kick its ass with the same cards in say a 100 battles stint you need more skill or it would make you better,
One question: Do you have contact with other people in real life?
What kind of question is that of course i do and if you look at what we are doing maybe dont judge before im sorry im able to make large investments bc i worked my dick off and am able to get lines of credit for this as well as use retirement funds like im taking real risk but the rewards will be worth it and i plan on sharing those all with my team. If we hit 1 million in profit in 12 months were all going to take 100K of that and go on vacation as a reward or pay for all the ppl to attend splitnerfest if were at 2-5 million whic his likely since we have other profit generation things in the works as well.
im just a trader and investor for my job i retired form tranditional work a few years agot young yes but i worked my ass of to do it.
i ask because your texts come across as if you are quite anti-social and have zero sense of empathy
Im just blunt i dont suger coat shit texts are completely different than in person if you met me you would think tottaly diff
okay all good 😘
I honestly dont care what ppl think they love it or hate it im going to be me.
I think ive talked in here more than anythin and visit my discord you will get a totally diff side of me
Not really anti social is it just not what you may be used to
This is business with real money on the line so no i do not suger coat it for ppl i dont care if they get offended this world is to sensitive as it is. I am trying to do whats best for my investment and the game since i do own both SPS, Cards, Splinterlands Stock and pretty much every thing i can so have a lot in here so my opinon will be made at least if ppl take it the wrong way just ask and if i fucked up ill admit it lol
Some cards are in some rulesets even worser at higher level, take the Gelatinous Cube, if you use Mimosa Nightshade or the Ruleset is "No Magic" the Gelatinous Cube level 9 is better than the level 10 version, simple because he has one livepoint more and Void is already added from the summoner or is not neccessary if no magic monster can be on the battlefield.
Then play what works better?
I think it is better if your monster has one lifepoint more without any disadvantages for this or not ?