RE: SPS Governance Proposal - Adjust Rewards Based on Card Level
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Here's the problem I see:
Right now we are losing players because they feel the game decision makers (big players and devs) don't really care about the new and/or smaller players.
Changes like this are probably ok, but it seems to me like we want to do everything BUT think about what the new player faces. For instance:
First and most importantly, a new player has to face over 100k automated bots that have been programmed to have the perfect teams in the bronze and silver levels for each of our rulesets and mana caps. Unless a person has some insight as to some work arounds, they simply have no fun getting their brains beat in day in and day out.
Secondly, these automated bots ONLY EXIST because they get FREE cards to play. These aren't new accounts, these are accounts that have been opened for many months (and in some cases years), but THEY DON'T HAVE TO OWN/RENT THE CARDS that they play. They simply rent the key cards necessary to milk the system, and do it by relying heavily on the free cards to do so.
In other words, if you took away the starter cards for all accounts after an introductory period, then a substantial portion of those 100K+ accounts would either 1) cease to exist or 2) have to rent/own.
These 2 things affect the game for new players in the following ways:
Gameplay at the low level is not fun, and in order to rise above this unnecessary hurdle a player must decide to spend many hundreds of dollars to build an adequate deck. So enabling these 100k bots to have FREE CARDS to play and stomp in the lower leagues, not only ruins the small player experience, it take a massive amount of their earnings (see below).
Because a bronze and silver player must share their earnings with these 100k+ accounts, their earnings have be destroyed. I would suggest that there is probably 50 to 100 bots for each human in those leagues. This is a massive hit to the "little guy's" earnings from playing. Just like larger players think large players should make their fair share, little players feel the same too. The same frustration is applicable.
For a game that suggests (rightly) that you should own your assets to earn from the game, it seems like this concept is being lost when it comes to the little guy. It seems like little players don't matter. While I know better and know that the DEVs do care, the appearance is terrible.
I have made this point before and I can tell you the first reaction: The nerfs put in already have made the bots not use the starter cards since they don't earn on them. If this were true, which isn't, then removing the starter cards would have no negative impact. In other words, what is the point of having them after an introductory period?
Summary
While I like the game trying to always improve the way in which rewards are given out, I HATE when the game neglects a segment of our community. If someone has been here for more than an introductory period, they should own or rent the cards they play. PERIOD.
While people can debate if my solution would work or not relative to chasing away the bots, one thing is clear. All changes to rewards at this point mean nothing to the little players, they will continue to feel that they stand no chance and aren't listened to as long as their competition gets FREE CARDS to both steal their rewards and beat the shit out of them.
I love this game, I think the team truly cares about everyone. But I think they've lost touch with what the smaller players feel and should put much more thought into this issue. The community was built for all size players, and I don't think its possible to grow much larger without getting back to those roots.
Please help people and not bots.
Yes, the new player experience is 100% an area that needs a lot of focus and we're currently looking at the data on starter cards and how we can address the issues there.
That's all completely separate from this particular proposed change though. This is just about making sure that players to own or rent the appropriate assets in order to be able to earn the rewards for them.
thank you Matt!
For new player experience, have you considered creating a ghost league with progression to earn new ghost cards the more you play the game? This will allow new players to really experience the game for what it is than worrying about how much money they should spend to compete in ranked games? Of course ghost league will not earn you anything.
This is already possible to some degree, I believe. If you don't buy a Summoner's Spellbook, you can play the game, but you won't earn rewards.
It doesn't allow you to experience climbing the leagues with the changes in abilities, though.
Yes correct!
Agreed.
It could if it used the same leagues and ranking system as the main game does though
the ghost league will allow you to use max level cards unlike in the ranked league ghost cards, you can only use level 1. There should still be progression in this league to earn the max level ghost cards or other ghost cards on diff levels. This is the only way majority of players can experience the game to its fullest potential.
Ok, that's an interesting idea. And I think it would be beneficial for new players because the gameplay is more entertaining at higher levels and they can only experience the lower leagues in ranked battles and may think the game isn't fun at all.
This is going to be possible with the new open tournaments (although there is a 20SPS entry fee) https://splinterlands.com/?p=tournament&id=a9cceda6e3921f65baef72a14a9e66cd8d28c534
20 sps doesnt seem like it would be a issue at thewe prides
Where are the rewards coming from sure as hell not from the current things there would need to be some sort of new way no way sps should be involved rewarding or very small amoutn.
What about a SPT rental market place where rents are determined by stske left for me to vote with and would need a formula as well as incentives if they rent a lot it will ower cost and be locked for a month. I get my votes i want.
If I have "No Melee"-Ruleset I need a chicken with Level 1 (By the way: Why can't I use my Max-Level-Chicken at Level 1 - this update was promised a long time ago), so when I put this in future in my team this will cut my rewards ?
no wonder i never see it
Hoping to help with my project and the many guilds were building for new players and then still have details to work out but having NFty manage it will free up my time to do that thank god for them lol I would be shot if i had to manage it.
Boting is not bad if you put resources and the intent to use those to help and profit. mine are not exploiting they have between the two average it 30K a piece
Good @bcarolan639 ... I agree as well... my criticism is about the free cards (starter cards) that enable hundreds of thousands of accounts to take rewards (both SPS and reward cards). If those accounts rented or owned the same cards then I would not have an issue with them.
Good job to help others too, that is very nice to hear!!!
I actually own a small part of the shares so benefiting all sides is in my interest
Not the dao own that to but i got in during the seed round luckily but that puts me in a position to see it from all sides
iagree with that
Im trying I want this shit and GLS to kill it i own stock as well as the dao so I have a large chunk of change in this and the only way to grow is bring in new ppl and help as well as it will make me money not as much but plenty since i just bought the 10K packs or 50000 cards to fund decks to play
I'm with you. I think that's the plan with the new projects SPL is doing, bringing in more players to increase awareness and attract more gamers. And if they do that then we both will do really well! :)
100% get rid of those
100% they need to go
Same here not a issue if you spent the money to bot at a high level
Nice, I like that introductory period thingy.
Honestly, what needs to happen too is draining the players rating slowly when they don't have the required CP (or Power). That is a huge RED FLAG for people double dipping.
So if they don't have the 'Power' for that league then each day their rating is reduced, and helps the active players push past them.
Yes agree completely @just2random
I like it makes me more moeny in higher leauge and pushes rents up
I would support the no hibernation proposal :)
Just seems lazy to do that
You should 100% be able to earn passive income 24/7 if you invest in the account i have thousands and would need to dump alot of card if something like that were passed bc i dont have all day to play everysecond but i need the moeny to support my projects and with 90-100K plus invested I should be able to get rewards for that. Its called investing
low power shit bots make it hard but mine plays in diamond 1 all the time so with out those alot of games are hard to find bc ppl cant play all day and work on projects for the game to like i do
Fair enough bcarloan curious where you are on the SPS DEC proposal now actually
i voted yes for this one
Makes sense I kind of like combo packs so hope they all pass :)
I changed my 580K sps to vote yes so hope it does i read it all wrong before
Ya i always have combined and i know it makes them worth less right away but winning has made up for that
I want dec to get slammed down for a bit and i dont care if sps is lower bc of it give me time to accumulate lol once im at like 2-3 million then im ready for these lol I think i voted for SPS rewards bc it will lower the price letting me buy more and against anything that pushes up dec because i neeed a bit to buy at a discount and flipping large numbers of packs to get airdrops is pretty profitable. Tryingto buiild a war chest before shit ineveitabley goes up whe nthe other games come to be fully operationsl
Im thinking long term for me i can with stand sps hiting a cent id be buying millons as ppl dump it same with cards now im buying a crap load of them no one understands that the demand will come back as long as ppl play the game which seems to be doing fine based on my share value as well in the stock i own to. I have almost no preference bc i win no matter what with all sides of the game. Unless this company dies which with what there doing now doubt it.
read it all wrong lol
Wow, this is a fabulous idea! This would also even out the rental market. It's not unreasonable to expect players (or bots) to maintain a consistent deck throughout the season in order to reap the leaderboard rewards. That looks plain ugly anyhow, I don't see a downside to ratings decay mechanism.
That sounds fine and agreat idea
Dave for President!
lol :D
I'd say that the problem with removing starters after an introductory period is that it doesn't allow for someone trying the game briefly then coming back at a later point, only to find they can't do anything because the starters have all gone. Even if you did it as the starters going after a certain amount of games it wouldn't take into account various development speeds. I recall when I started losing hand over fist as I tried to figure things out. It was only because I was lent some cards by Matt Clarke and got the odd reward card that I actually started getting anywhere. That's how slow a learner I am. 😆 I'd do better today if I had to start over, but that's a few years of experience behind me.
I agree that is an issue to consider @minismallholding , I have suggested that instead of time being the determinant for their removal, instead make it x amount of charges for each card. So for instance you can use each card 100, 200, 500, xxx times, then it will go away. If you did that then you could also give them popups to let them know that they can rent the card on the market when its getting ready to be used up. To me this would make the most sense, because we want people to try the cards and then if they like them, they can either buy or rent them in the future.
and Matt Clarke will go in the hall of fame for all he's done for the game :D
Why not charge sps and give it to the dao
So your saying decaying cards not liking the sound of that at all. a hard no from me if i am understanding it
THIS. I don't even need to right a direct reply for the article, you covered nearly everything. Great job! I'm going to stop my unstaking just to vote this bs down ;)
In my opinion Splinterlands think since a long time not to the small player anymore, they aren't interested in them, the time is over when somebody who spent 500$ or 1000$ in the game is worth something.
They showed it again and clear with the promotion for Splinterfest, the smallest package was 4000 packs for 4$ = 16.000$ and if you buy the biggest pack for 160.000$ you got 40-times more SPTD packs than with 16.000$, additional bonus packs (with this promotion) you got also only in the more expensive package.
I don't understand why it is not possible to make also a package for 500$ or 1000$ - the only answer I have is that they don't care about such people with such "small" amounts.
So this is IMO the real problem.
100% in agreement, a lot big players see that issue as well. We need new players. Period! And currently I do not see a lot that attracts new folks.
The problem is the game is not competitive at all. If all cards would have the same stats and level up means only " more rewards" it would be the pro gaming scene.
But what we see is money = higher rank means the game is meaningless to compare it to skill.
If you have zero investment or skill you wont nake money
only investment needed + time.
Does take skill to play and win money there
IM a large player with a project that im doing that will focus on bringing new ppl in and getting them in brawls to build up guilds and accounts they can later earn or buy based on there profitability and time with the guild.
Pretty much, I sold 90% of my account in the last year or so cos I don't like the direction things are going and it makes me think it's all just a waste. I mean who wants to play a game with 50 people with max everything and 100k bots.
You can beat my bot prob pretty easily if yo uhave the leveled cards to do it.
There is loook at the purchases in the store 100 = 400 or less with dec, 500 - 2000 or half with dec theres your thousand an 4000 with dec on the last one seems like its covered
I spoke from the promotion for Splinterfest, this is on top to the normal bonus packs (who aren't free - they need one voucher). To take part in the promotion for Splinterfest you need to buy 4.000 packs for 16.000.000 DECs. Even this packet is very poor if you compare with the paket for 40.000 Packs for 160.000 DECs, if you spent 10-times more you get 40-times more SPTD-Packs, 10% additional bonus packs, more potions & runis.
So IMO you see clear the splinterlands-management is only interested in big investors, they obvisiouly even not thought that their can be people who want (or can) spent only 500$ or 1000$ - This is the point.
I haave to disagree i am a big investor now but I wasnt at all times when i first bought in they still let me even though it was not the most profitable for them since legal costs compared to proceeds but they still let me in and have taken care of my concerns and requests when i only had a few grand in in it now i have quite a bit more but still nothing has changed for me. Let them do what they do and i bet it comes out good.
I think alot of ppl are not really seeing the whole thing and are freaking out bc were in a period where earnings are less if you are using this to earn money for a job you needd a pretty big account and accounts botted a24/7 and played in tournaments plus brawls s well as own the promo items like runis for rewards drops and varous air drops like GLX very improtant in my opinion bc you here them talking baout all the shit they are going to do with the games and if ppl can just wait like i waited a while before when i played al long time ago. Right now take advantage of low prices bc no one has much money im about to buy a bumch of cheap ass cards
When ppls earnigns go down they dont think straight unless you have dealt with this stuff alot
Can pool with ppl to do large purchases
yes you can pool but you cannot share what you get, f.e. potions aren't transferable, so you cannot share them with the member of your pool. So one have the potions to open all packs and other have packs without potions.
Also it is a question of trust to make a pool as in the end the account-owner can just keep all and sent you nothing.
So I think it would be much easier to just allow to buy small packages.
Not if your a group and partners you just put it in the treasury account and are group will be big enough to do this.
Thats why i did buy the 25K package myself i got all the airdrops. I get like 70 airdrop cards now and with the end cards approaching they will be valued the most probably have like 5-10 K in drops which pays for half of my purcahse almost to.
Nice for you, but not everybody can buy 25k packs ...
I borrowed money on a zero percent credit card like i do every year to flip the packs and use others money for free, this year I used about 150K and used it to lease out in LP pools for stable coins mostly then some went in my brokerage like 30K so i could trade on margin on the margin i had. I didnt get my wealth by not taking any risk. I also have a significant investment in splinterlands including a large SPS, GLX, NODES, LAND, Common Stock in Steemmonsters Corp, large card collection so I have quite a bit of risk and possible reward. I get most cant afford this stuff but should anyone who invested early suffer and lose bc ppl cant figure out how to win and make money? I started grinding with absolutly no outside money and it was a 50K account in 2 years so it can be done you just need to really want to do it just like anything else that 90% fail at. Now im almost at the point maybe 1 million more sps and 200-500K sps then ill start sucking in stable coin pairs to create a annuity to use to buy more gaming assets in games like illuvium and other cryptos.
If you are so well, why you can't get others a upvote instead of yourself ?
I mean it is not that I beg for votes but to reply and give only a upvote to your reply show me what guy you are - sorry to say this.
Its purely numbers and using the same content on hive and steam as well as like 10 other sites that give u money then use a AI writer to plow out high quality content based on the best performing articles on each platform. Do text to audio and video on all video sites, translate to all languages that are active, audio and text, use posh for twitter, post on all traditional social media and direct ppl to the referral site which will show them how to get a splinterlands and hive account and then do the first 20 referral codes for bank accounts and get 2000 plus i get 2000 and then they can use that to fund there decks and I end up with a whole lot of money. I have a group of ppl ready to test it and try all of them which will let me get prob 40-50K per person if they get hat far but its like 020 ppl so even if they do the no brainer easy ones to get 2-3K ill get 40-60K just from that lol its so easy to do never tried at this scale but showing how it can get ppl assets for free in the the game will also give me X% of any credits spent so i get a piece of there referral to and any other money spent and will be handing out my referral code with a card for each person and pay them half of the credits in dec and ill use the credits to buy cards and flip or rent. Getting the gladious cards and soul bound for a bunch of accounts is the most important and i have the sps to do it when that comes so why not why wouldnt i as a investor in more ways than one not play this from a money making angle. Its just what im here for is to start a investment club funded by votes and vote capital raises where ppl vote and that translates to there equity pro rata once converted to busd or something. Once i get he funding site up to where ppl can do the bonuses then get a 20% bonus from my cut it all is invested in the club which will give us more funds and eventually will have hopefully a tone of money under management but not over like 100 million if we ever get that high since larger funds cant move money very nimbly or take advantage of this bottom feeding stock strategy i use all the time lol on the micro sctocks with my 1100 dollar robinhood account i mess around with last year made 1700 on 300 my brokerage statement had sales proceees of half a million thats how mucch i traded back and forth to make 2 k lol. It was what i did when i was wallking aaround or randomly remembered but some how i did good for the year lol. Once i get this fund running with my own money thats already in my acounts im goiongto raise the seed capital then probably wait for more performance and go to raise reg A up to 50 million and see how much we can get to manage and ecpand to new things oter than games to. Also will get a nice management fee and promoted interest for as long as the fund is in business so deff gong to make sure everything is seemless to get ppl onboarded to the club and the capital funding for the club and there deck as well so they an play in are guilds and level them up for us and we sell the guilds later with or with out accounts. A 10-20% royalty on every accouny applies so we get money and keep getting a stream that grows when mmore are sold. Also will be working on tokenixing a mazzive guild that the dao will elect the players to play the numner of guilds we will have so they can stream and play 24/7 like bots but will make the offer to give the best players much more rewards than others wwould so its pretty easy to get the ppl and then can try with new players give them the opportunity with a lower split to play a new guild and for each new member we get they will prob play 1/4 of a guild using accounts we own so we get all cards. Then the players will get upvotes if they reblog etc and vote back since the whole point for a investment club is to find strategies to make money. I found plenty thta will be pretty profitable now just need to make the new accounts and all the managment ones and its ready to go for the seed round and maybe well end up getting more than i think using tribevest herd good things. Hopefully we can make the minimum in the reg A like 50 dollars so everyone on hive can be involved at some level if they twant to.
Dosnt show just shows i use my capital the way i choose. I choose to allocate to my projct. yes i can have a slew of ppl upvote all getting the same if i did or they did so really does not matter votes go the same place author and reward plus steem same and 20 other chains. Will be funding for 6 months to create a start of what will be a usefuly token to replace SPT with cash flow or give us control to burn most of it in treasury lower vote limit and reimburse costs and return the rest evenly toanyone less than 1000 hive. Also have to build pre made frays for ppl no one has cards for it. SO were doing something. I dont care if you think its stupid were helping ppl with this and ive already moved the operation and its not dedectable now so itsl ike any other cartel token u guys let just do what they want but u can vote me in this acount when the hive comes in dont expenct freindly treatment from my group which will be alarge alliance by then with a huge amount of vote power enought to stop you by just re voting every down vote. and giving the ma bonus 2-4 votes. and keep groowing it so we cnat be bullyed agian for using are money they way we want and my content not the point what im doing with it is. So if your thing prevents good things how is it something we need. LIke i wonder how much i need to buy to just be bale to have a big influance on who does this stuff and propose removal of down votes or take the teeth off them. Addd funding for the club which will goto each person who claims there basica token allocation then there will be a miner auction and a seed round. If were not at 500K with that and the votes we will add a revenue share 50% cf for 2 years up to 2X and 3% equity. Then a sba loan 1-7 million for a building to make the first rent free and weed apt complex catored to gamers in NY only other ganaga hotel in co im a shareholder its a big tihing and gmaers lover weed.
if my reply vote gives me moeny why would i not if my opjective is raising mony
Think about games similar do like magic ppl have millon dollar collections plus the company has given away essentially profit for ppl who have listened I mean I have a stake in the DAO and the company so im in both sides of the earning fence so the company needs moeny to pay the devs and aeveryone plus produce a roi for unit holders which i have no complaints about. Watched this game develope over the years not once have i been concerned yes we have bull and bear markets , yes may be to risky for some but i thrive on risk and being able to manage it making good trades and setting up systems t osuck out rewards from steem and bring to hive lol.
But what have this to do with the question if you value small investors or even if you value investors at all ?
I don't know how many player / investors took part in the Splinterfest-promotion, but when I see the shop-page and see how many packs needed till next airdrop it seems for me that it wasn't really much.
The question is f.e. if it is better to collect from 2 investors (this is only a example as I don't know the real participants) 160.000$ = 320.000$ pr from 1000 investers 500$ or 1000$ each = between 500.000 and 1.000.000.
But I can also ask other question:
They could but that thats like 2k if thats to much just split it with ppl thats what we did with a 100k poool.
Just need more than one person easy
The game is simply heading in the wrong direction, no new players would be attracted by this, not gameplay nor rewards.
And we need new people and also keep old ones interested that leave already, a clear no to this proposal and any other changes that is purely intended to influence money and reward part. Maybe a cool gameplay attracts newbies?
@uwelang I agree very much about the perceived direction (that isn't necessarily their intent though) and about the retention issues. I've spoken directly with @yabapmatt about these issues in particular. He has promised that it is high on his priority list. While there are no single fixes (there are many steps needed to be taken), I think Matt is on it. I do trust that when Matt puts his mind to something, then he will make it happen in a way that we are all impressed!
I don't think we have to vote "no" on this proposal to be heard though, Matt says clearly this is just one step he's taking with many more to come.
I made my bet on the team years ago and i have not seen a change in there approach and if anything this game has improved 10X so im very happy to have bought units in the game and the DAO units so i get GLX tokens and Nodes
I still would just owuld need a bit more money now maybe 5K to get started wit ha collection owned but I have a partner who rents and kills it
IM doing a project ot help with that in guilds but there is just no way hihg level rewards can ever be cmpared to a new player who spent no money yet. I barely made anything i grinded alll day bc i likeed it lol Now havea lot of cards and capital so i can ahve nfty set up 8K packs for chaos optimized decks for rentals and splits if we make 10 on all 1500 accounts we get 15K a day plus EOS and Brawls as well as 100% of bot rewards to earn merits and sps during the day or night.
I agree 100% with this analysis and think the starter card issue needs to be addressed ASAP. It's not being given enough attention for how important of an issue it really is. My wife enjoyed the game but quit playing after a few weeks because of how awful the new player experience really is.
This really, really needs to be given top priority. And it's an easy fix!! 30 days and starter cards go away. Or a set of 'charges' per card aaaaand... they're gone. This is LONG overdue, especially when you consider the tremendous impact of this particular bot exploit.
The bots are not designed to beat your deck IF you actually use max level cards for the league you are playing in. This results in more people renting cards like I do and using the highest levels for each card which I have never had a problem beating the bots since I don't just play nonstop to pick random cards and "hope" to win. That is how people are abusing the rewards right now and if you stake SPS, this shouldn't even question the proposal here as it is a no brainer.
This proposal sounds good as long as it does not impact all the ppl who bot with say two 45k acccounts
It will help my bot win more since mine is playing high level so im goood
Good ideas! I would also like to add on this. In order to make the bots go away, let's separate everyone who has those free cards into a "Free League", which is basically same as the normal leagues, but without rewards. It doesn't serve anyone to have bots playing for rewards.
I like that idea @gamer00 !!!
yes free but not bots who have 90K in the game
Not in thousands of accounts but betwen like 3
Its a way we earn a roi 24/7 and are able to support things with that money there is no way that having a bot account with thousands of dollars of cards is exploiting
Yes and do not impact investors who put money into the bots like serious money
No it actually does they give ppl games to play now im talking about botsthat have a high amount of investment not shit bots like if you play mine it will be a challenge in diamond or champion no way bots should be banned many will wait like a hour for a match.
maybe a tiney amount to get ppl to play with no money
pretty small
I agreee for no investment but fuck no fo ppl who have hig level bots with alot of money and have fun finding any game to play
I like your idea. I play a whole lot less these days because it is not worth the massive amounts of time it would take to even begin to make this rewarding. I'm trying out brawls to see if I can at least bring back the fun.
Thats wehre my project is focusing on making higher level guilds accessible by leveling them on a large scale for ppl who are new to playin like reservedf spots not for older players as much. I want to build them up get them strong accounts then give them the purchase option to buy out the account with gladious cards that we would own until then.
I get to diamond one in like less than a day in wild