Market Listing Fees & Expiration
The Splinterlands team is planning to introduce a 1 DEC or 1 Credit fee for all new listings and price updates on the Splinterlands card sales and rental markets, as well as adding a 30 day expiration time to both new and existing listings. These changes are currently planned to be released on Tuesday, March 7th, 2023, during the normal maintenance window, and they will require updates for third-party tools and services that perform these operations (more details below).
These changes are necessary to help reduce our internal server costs and to ensure that our services can continue to run smoothly without lagging or falling behind (many players may have noticed that this has been an issue lately, especially with the rental market). These changes are just one part of a much larger overall project to reduce costs and ensure that our services can continue to scale up far into the future and handle the anticipated growth.
For some context, the Splinterlands servers have to process millions of market listings and updates every day and they need to index, cache, and update the data in near real-time to support not only our internal market on the Splinterlands website, but also all of the other third-party markets and services that are part of the ecosystem.
By adding this relatively small fee and having listings that are not sold or rented expire, we can very significantly reduce the amount of data that needs to be indexed and made available as well as reduce the volume of transactions that need to be processed, which can drastically reduce our operating costs and allow the system to scale up to support a much larger player base in the future.
As with all such changes, the fee and the expiration time are subject to change in the future. We will be closely monitoring the effects of these changes, both on our servers and on the overall markets, to make sure that everything is working as intended and see if any adjustments are necessary.
Listing Fee
As mentioned above, the fee for the relevant transactions will be 1 DEC or 1 Credit token, and it will be charged per listing that is added or updated on the market and not per blockchain operation. We feel that this fee is small enough to be insignificant to most players while still encouraging users and automated tools to be more thoughtful about the amount of these operations that they send.
All DEC tokens spent on listing fees will be burned and the market within the Splinterlands website will automatically use DEC for the listing fee unless the player does not have enough DEC, in which case it will fall back to using Credits. Third party markets are encouraged to clearly message the new listing fees on their websites.
Please note that for rental listings, the fee will only be charged once when the card is listed, and that card can be rented indefinitely without paying the fee again until the card is cancelled by the owner or the price is updated.
Finally, please note that even though rental listing actions will now have a payment component, the posting key will still be able to be used for these transactions. There are many popular rental services which work using posting keys and we do not want to break those considering this is a very low-risk situation. Going forward, however, we do highly encourage third-party rental services to use the rental authority feature instead of requiring users to provide their posting keys.
Listing Expiration
In addition to the listing fee, all sale and rental market listings will also have a 30 day expiration time. New market listings will expire 30 days from when they are first listed, and existing listings will be set to expire in 30 days from the date of this change being released.
Rental market listings will only expire if they have not been rented at all for 30 days. Any time a rental ends and the card goes back on the rental market the 30 day expiration timer will reset.
When a market listing expires, the card will be automatically removed from the market and will need to be re-listed and the listing fee will need to be paid again.
Technical Details
Two new parameters list_fee and list_fee_token will need to be added to all of the affected operations listed below in order to acknowledge the new fee. Operations from the list that do not include the new parameter will fail, which will ensure that any bots or tools that are not updated will not be charged a fee that they were not expecting.
New parameters:
list_feea valid float which is equal to thelist_fee_per_card(see below) times the number of cards in the operation.list_fee_tokenmust be either "DEC" or "CREDITS". At the time of this writing, the Splinterlands UI will select DEC by default. If the player does not have enough DEC, then it will attempt to use CREDITS and fail should they not have enough.
To calculate the list_fee you will need to fetch the list_fee_per_listing obtained from json of the https://api2.splinterlands.com/settings endpoint. If the list_fee_per_listing is not defined or 0, then the list_fee is disabled. Example of the result:
{
"list_fee_per_listing": 1
}
With the list_fee_per_listing you can calculate the total list_fee by multiplying the number of market listings in the operation by list_fee_per_listing. For example, assume list_fee_per_listing is 1 and you have 2 cards being listed in the operation, then list_fee must be set to exactly 2 which is (1 x 2 = 2).
Please note that sets/packages of cards only count as one listing, and will only have to pay the list_fee_per_listing cost once per set/package.
The list of operations that will need to be updated with the new parameter are:
- sm_sell_cards
- sm_update_price
- sm_update_rental_price
- sm_market_list
The format of the new parameter should be as follows:
{
// other params for the operation...
"list_fee": 1,
"list_fee_token": "DEC"
}
Stay tuned for more updates from the Splinterlands!
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The 5% sales tax is no longer enough, now the listing fee... I really like the HIVE ecosystem because it has almost zero fees and Splinterlands wants to move in the opposite direction to that!
This is not good news 😓
It is when those fees benefit everyone ecosystem by being burned while also reducing the cost to the dev team (which is essentially the ecosystems's money indirectly)
100 cards listed = 100 DEC ?
For each card, 1 DEC. If you want to change the price for another 1 DEC per card. It's sad
Sad.
Then don't change or cancel the rental or change the price until there's a significant change. If you rented the card for 60 days for someone, didn't bother to change anything and let the 60 day expire, you still spent 1 DEC for 60 days as fee. It's not 1 DEC per day. It's 1 DEC per card PER TRANSACTION.
One-time payment if you don't relist your card. 10 days of your card being rented and you'll get profit after that.
100 cards listed=100 DEC
A single BCX card will list for 0.1 DEC per day to get back 1 DEC in 10 days interesting
Keep adding fees. GL
So all prices will raise of 1 dec, meaning cheap cards will not anymore be cheap, nor sell nor rented, one better burn them, why couldn't you make a % fee based on price?
not necesarelly, since the fee is only paid once you can actually still rent cards for 0.5 dec and profit after a few days if the card is rented
I think it only affects ridiculous rentals for 0.1 dec or people or bots that are constantly changing the price on low renting cards
cheap is relative. The race to the bottom for rental listings has been a problem for a while. Anyone who's been renting has been getting a very low-cost lunch for some time.
when season rentals come out I will list a ton of cards for 0.20 DEC... but only if people are renting them of course, but then that will mean there is demand for them.
I mean, good. We can get cheaper cards while Splinterlands can burn 1 DEC per card. I think it's a win-win for us except for you if you rented it for that low. But if you still want to, nobody is stopping you. I will say thank you in advance if you do so.
yes exactly. I think some cards should be priced in such a way to encourage players that need them to be able to afford them. I will list many that will be inexpensive I'm sure.
I do agree with you this is a win/win... In fact I think it will be a win/win/win ... players/renters/game ...
The reason is say the game is not only the burn for the economy, but also the much better user experience because card owners won't be yanking away the rentals every few days to get a few more bucks. Plus some aggressive card owners constantly tried to undercut each listing by trivial fractions that made rentals very frustrating.
"card owners won't be yanking away the rentals every few days to get a few more bucks."|
I so agree on this. I'm not rich and if anything, I'm poor and able to like put $3 only per 2 weeks on the game for rental (thank Splinterlands contest), and it's pretty annoying to deal with the change in price every day. I rent the cards for the whole 15 days, and it will be cancelled after 2 days because the owner of the card wanted to change the price from 0.5 dec to 0.6 DEC. I have to spend a few minutes everyday which cards has been cancelled and re-rent them or else I'll lose on my battles.
If you can still put the cards on 0.20 DEC per day, as a renter, I should be thankful. But business-wise, it's not smart unless you do can get that lost 0.80 DEC from other card rentals.
Either way, the extra 1 DEC fee will be burned so it's not going to rotate on the market and will be good in maintaining the value of DEC especially since people can play always Brawl and get a card to burn for DEC which increases the DEC in the market and thus lowering the price overall.
What about players who are playing for 2 days straight, want to rest or have some other important things to do than splinterlands and wanted to utilize it by renting cards out and then come back in 2-3 days and play again.
This way that player have to relist the cards again and again to alternate between play and rest. The example of such player is me and I like to use my non splinterlands playing days to earn via rentals. And this is pretty bad for me. I think they should implement that if I put cards again for renting without changing rental price, it should go without fee
You can choose to rent your cards or play them. Obviously you will do what is best for you at each time you want to make that decision.
Switching between both those has a cost. If you have 100 cards you are playing, then its 100 DEC each time you want to go from playing to renting. That's about 7c ... I don't know how much you get from renting but if its not at least 7c then its probably best not to rent.
Obviously there's a cost to the game every time everyone makes a transaction. In the past they didn't charge anything and it was abused. People found loopholes and listed millions of cards many times each day. In other words humans used tools to find ways to get every penny out they could and didn't care what happened to everyone else. This will make things more fair for everyone, including you. It will make using the resources of the team more rationale and thus people will only do things that are "worthwhile". Contrast that to the fact that people exploited things when everything was free to do.
Definitely I agree with you in this, the cards I rent out is max level and I play with them as well. I'm not a big player but whatever I play is max level. Definitely it's more than 1dec per card but since those cards also don't get more than 7-8 Dec per day average, my revenue is obviously impacted by 15%
That is based on the rental rates after this change, which of course might change as you reduce supply of cards overall on the market. Plus on top of that remember that land will start to use up a ton of cards as well.
And the second point is you don't have to pay the 1 DEC per listing each day. You only pay it one time as long as your cards stay rented. So you might keep them rented for 3 to 5 days, which will cut that cost down as a % too.
Maximum I put for 3 days, usually 2 days because that much space will make me miss champion league or wrong days
Financially it doesn't make sense cause you spend BEFORE the cards are rented, let's say you got 1000 cards and list them for 0.2, you gonna spend immediately 1000 Dec, then you need 6 days out of 14 to repay that considering ALL cards get rented, at this point one just burn cards
but I only pay that 1000 DEC 1 time. If I price my cards properly so they rent out one time every 30 days, then no more listing fees.
In other words, if I do rent them out once, then a new 30 day clock will start. In theory if I price mine right, then they will almost always be in demand and I will only pay that 1000 DEC fee the 1st time I listed them.
If everyone has your same idea, market will be flooded by cards thar were 0.1 at 0.2, exactly same as now, you cant know yours are gonna be taken and not someone else, then the rest expire and you need to pay 1000 again
Now you are arguing that the market will be flooded with cheap cards?
David, think of it like this. The market will adjust because humans will make decisions, there will be no more wasted listings at ridiculous prices because that won't be efficient.
Instead what will happen is everyone (big and small alike) will only list cards at prices they feel rent out for. They will not "flood" the market either because they won't want to pay to have them relisted either. So what the market will get is what it needs at prices that both the renters and card owners feel is fair collectively.
Remember there will be season rentals too, this will be a major factor as well. Plus people have land, this will take a lot of cards from the rental market too.
I know it seems scary at first, I have tons of cards listed too. But when you think it through you will see that all this is doing in make people list less frequently if they want to avoid the fee. At stable pricing if they want to avoid the fee. And finally only list cards that are in demand to avoid the fee.
I believe that in 3 months from this happening, you will find a much better player experience of renting cards, plus I think the card owners will find that the rentals have gone up as a result of it.
Wait, 1 DEC is not cheap for you? It's currently 1700 DEC per $1. Wait wut?
I don't mean to be rude but if 1 DEC or $0.00074687 rental is expensive for you. I do think you have to find another game. One where you can rent a card cheaper than $0.00074687.
I am thinking at bronze players for example, in bronze you earn 0.00x sps per win, if prices that were 0.1 now becomes 1.1 daily, you think that's sustainable for the player? Of course not, a full set is gonna cost just too much
It's literally 1 DEC per card, like, 0.0007$. It's 15x less than a single cent.
Why this decision come so suddenly? There are no governance voting done for this, or even being announced in the Town Hall.
Was announced in the TH and as this is not regarding SPS, there doesn't need to be any governance voting AFAIK.
Very much needed change to cut down on net negative transactions in game.
Then what, fee for login and battle?
This is going to go over well.... Isn't there a better way?
You're already collecting 5% fee on everything on rentals and sales every day.
Awesome, this is a great update.
I would like to suggest that something be done to end all of the criminally underpriced rentals whose owners seem to have gone missing.
Maybe have all rentals that were listed before the change goes into effect get canceled after 30 days no matter what. Then start the feature where if your card gets rented the de-list clock resets.
why would they even do that? If people found cheap rentals and owners never bothered to change the price I see no problem with it, why do we need to screw the renters?
I tried really hard to get this to happen.
Even indicated that those early negligent listings might cause more chaos and problems for the market and that there is an argument that those listings indirectly lead to more repricings and market problems than any other factor.
Similarly i suggested that if those owners wanted to come in and re-commit to their insane 30x lower prices than avg (which bots likely scoop up) then they had 2 weeks to reprice and thus have a newer listings that wouldn't expire... ever.
I guess they could run a query to see how many legacy listings still exist from the first month or two and have never been changed. Maybe the data would prove our theory wrong.
As a large renter of cards this will change my activity, but I fully support the decision and think its a great solution. While this might hurt my rental income, I believe its important for the following reasons:
Most importantly the cost to us all is high if we require unnecessary blockchain transactions. This will significantly cut down on wasted and unnecessary pricing changes.
This change will improve the user experience. The old system that was free encouraged people/bots to undercut by 0.0000000001 DEC because it was free to do so. This was not only a waste of resources, but it was also irritating and gave a very poor user experience.
This change will encourage players to use the season long rental system when its live. Instead of players and renters having to spend an incalculable amount of time trying to find the cards and/or make sure they didn't lose the rental each day, this will be encourage people to "rent it and forget it" and make a much smoother experience.
Finally, while I know a lot of people have become addicted to just renting out their cards and collecting solid passive income, this change along with the soulbound card change that has chased away a significant number of bot renters will fix a few more issues that many have complained about.
No solution can please everyone. But we should all realize that we won't have a game for long if we don't encourage 1) a great player experience and 2) do so in a way that is sustainable for both the devs and the players.
Splinterlands has reacted slow to many of the issues, but when they do act it is for the purpose of making the game/user experience/economy better. They are not doing this to line their pockets. I for one appreciate it and support them in this change even though my rental income will drop. I plan to be here for the rest of my life, so of course I want them to do what is needed to make us not only survive but prosper!
Thank you SPL team for a very creative solution to what we all know was a big issue. I look forward to the season rental system as well.
I wonder if this will affect how 3rd party renting platforms?
Why not define that a rent can only have one decimal place ?
This would solve the problem when bots want undercut by 0.0000000001 DEC as this would not be possible anymore.
But would not have the side effects.
Let's say in this way: When you sell your house the estate agent will take a fee AFTER he sold your hours isn't it ? Would you be glad if he take an additional fee every 30 days just for listen your house ?
The fee for listing your house is also done IRL. For example, in Etsy, you pay I think $1 for them to enlist your items and then they take a small fee if that item was sold. To counter this, all the seller needs to do is incorporate the expense to the sales price.
I'm not really sure why you gave that example about the house because if you also use sites like real estate websites, what Splinterlands is doing, they are doing it. The site will include a fee for listing, and the agent who will do the documentation, etc will get the fee for selling/buying the house.
So with us, a broker does not charge any fees for listing a house and certainly not every 30 days if he has not managed to sell the house, he only gets his commission if he is successful and Splinterlands collects it if the rental is successful. What's the point of delisting a card after 30 days so that the owner has to re-list it again, after all these are all transactions and it's all about reducing them, isn't it?
"What's the point of delisting a card after 30 days so that the owner has to re-list it again"
After all these are all transactions and it's all about reducing them, isn't it?
For my understanding (correct me if I am wrong) in the blockchain you pay with ressource credits, is splinterlands low in ressource credits ? I guess no:
By the way:
How many cards are at the moment listed for $1000000 (or more) for rent ?
It won't solve anything. Bots will just undercut by 0.1 DEC instead of 0.00001 DEC, but they'll keep automatically undercutting real, human players, making the whole experience shittier for actual, real, human players.
Okay if this is the issue and you don't think that it helps what about a fee only for changing a price.
To prevent bypassing this by taken out the card and listen them again just define a cooldown-time (f.e. 1 hour) you have to wait to list a card who you have delisted again in the market.
I'm 100% OK with this change as long as the DEC fee is burned. Think it might help the economy in the long run.
Not a fan at all guys, I think this idea is badly thought out, As others have said one of the key things about the HIVE engine ecosystem is that has almost 0 Gas fees, This is simply like adding back a downside to your system. I think a deeper look at what causes the millions of listings and the constant price changes would be better. This seems like a band-aid fix. The constant relisting is an attempt to be at the TOP of the rental list to get your card rented. This drives down prices and causes the market to get hit with to many transactions ( At the same time the high volume of transactions is something you guys are always advertising how many BILLIONs of transactions you have ). So let's see if we can't come up with a better solution. That removes the cards renting for .001 dec removes the constant price changes and also doesn't require changes on external markets to increase your partner's cost.
Solution OPTIONS OTHER THAN ADDING A FEE
Minnium Rental Price. If instead of adding a fee set a minimal rental price of 1-5 DEC, the 5% fee would increase the amount of dec coming in that could be burned. Thus raising the value of DEC and SPS and appearing to make renting MORE valuable, Not LESS. Also with a floor of 1 Dec for a lot of cards, this will set a floor price you can't go below.
Re-ordeing cards to First IN first Out. (When cards are the same price show the older one not the newer one as the next one to be sold to encourage people to keep there cards listed)
Cooldown, Don't allow cards to be relisted right away put cards on a cooldown period of 6 hrs to 24hrs after removing them to change the price.
(More Abstract)
Conclusion - I know you guys think this is an easy fix but its a BAD idea and if this was a proposal i thin you guys know NO ONE would vote for it. So i think its very bad taste for you guys to change the game economy so greatly when there are much simpler and less drastic measures
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Increasing the rental price to 1 DEC or higher essentially does the same. The difference is where that $ goes. A minimum rental price goes to the lister. A burn fee goes to everyone.
I'm not sure why you're suggesting this.
off of every listing, 5% of the listing goes back to the game. Changing it to a minn of say 1 Dec says they make .05dec off every listing that was previously getting them nearly nothing. So yes it benfits everyone and doesn't add more fees to the game
New player experience is just getting worse, level 1 cards will no longer be worth renting and will no longer exist for new players some reward cards rent for less than .007. The market currently drives competitive pricing. This tax will eliminate the rental of many lower level cards. Goodbye new player experience. Seems like a % with cap would have been more appropriate. I appreciate SPL trying to save costs but this push without any DAO vetting is terrible for the game.
Hey @jmaan I understand your concern and I definitely share your desire to help the new player (small player) experience.
I believe that almost all of what you feel will happen to the 1 bcx cards will be fixed with the season rental solution.
When spread out over a full 15 days, this change would enable players to list their cards at a reasonable price to the new players. I will still list cards for 0.2 DEC for instance if I am locking in a full season of rentals.
I think the fear that no one will do the same is not going to materialize. My guess is we will even see some players list at 0.10 per day and leave them there forever as long as there is demand for those cards.
So while we agree that you're conclusion that no cards would be available to small/new players would not be good, we just disagree on whether that will happen or not.
What? It's 1 DEC per 30 days not $1. That means your $1 will be around 1800 DEC or 1800 months or 150 years. I feel like you're a botter with 1,000,000 account for you to be bothered with a 1 DEC per card listing. How many cards are you listing on the market and how many of them are rented out? I'm really bothered and curious.
There's a really easy solution if you're really concerned about the DEC price fee. It's 1 DEC per card so if you're currently renting 800 level 1 cards and don't want to spend 800 DEC per month/per listing, just combine the cards and rent it for a higher price. You not only spend less than 800 DEC but also get more for your money.
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hi,
Does this means for example that if I rent a card for 60 days the rental WONT be cancelled?
"Rental market listings will only expire if they have not been rented at all for 30 days. Any time a rental ends and the card goes back on the rental market the 30 day expiration timer will reset."
That's my understanding. As long as the card is actively being used (at least once every 30 days), then it will stay on the market and no more fee. I could be wrong but that's how I read it.
A TLDR for it is: The owner of the card needs to pay 1 DEC to rent their cards. That card must be rented or someone must rent that card, fulfilled or cancel in order to re-list in the market. If no one rented the card for 30 days, then they would pull out the card from the rental.
No. It's for the renters. If you want to list a card in the market, and that rental card was not rented by anyone for 30 days, they will pull it back to the one who rent and don't list it. If someone rented it, then the card either fulfilled the condition or either the renter or the owner cancelled it and/or changed the price, the card will be listed again for 30 days so they will take another 1 DEC for the listing.
For easier undersstanding, I'll make a situation.
There's no effect on the people who rented my cards. If the Gargoya Lion is listed for 2 DEC, you still pay 2 DEC per day. If you rented it for 60 or 300 days or however long you want, as long as I don't or you don't cancel the rental, you can still rent it for 60 days or 300 days or however long you rented it for.
This change is only for the ones renting their extra cards for other people.
Why not think about smarter solutions ?
for example:
Why not define that a rent can only have one decimal place ?
Why not just take a fee for price change (not for listing a card) and add a cooldown-time from f.e. 1 hour for a card who was listed at the rental market and delisted before they can be listed again ?
Why you need this fees - I mean you take already 5% fee from every rental.
Let's say in this way: When you sell your house the estate agent will take a fee AFTER he sold your hours isn't it ?
Would you be glad if he take an additional fee every 30 days just for listen your house ?
HOLY SHIT! You guys are going to break this game with your dumb as hell changes... This is ridiculous.
Of course this was not a proposal, as no one in his right mind would have voted for that shit... Disgusting.
that's not true. I would've voted for it
you are wrong. because many people who are interested in splinterlands know that there are many problems in the rental market. e.g. bots that constantly update the prices to be the first to rent out and that at prices of 0.1 dec. this is not only enormous resources that are wasted there for nothing, but it also reduces our enjoyment. or have you not noticed how many people are angry because of the constant delays etc?
so there are a lot of people who wanted changes there. i would have preferred to introduce a minimum rent of 1dec. but the team has found another solution that is better for the tenants in any case. because my solution would have been more expensive for the tenants.
so even though it's not my favorite, i would have voted for it. because it's clear that there's a problem that needs to be fixed. and i trust that the team has chosen the best option.
Why not think about smarter solutions ?
for example:
Why not define that a rent can only have one decimal place ?
Why not just take a fee for price change (not for listing a card) and add a cooldown-time from f.e. 1 hour for a card who was listed at the rental market and delisted before they can be listed again ?
Why Splinterlands need this fees - I mean they take already 5% fee from every rental.
Let's say in this way: When you sell your house the estate agent will take a fee AFTER he sold your hours isn't it ?
Would you be glad if he take an additional fee every 30 days just for listen your house ?
why do you want to put a card that no one has rented for 30 days back on the rental market? the rental period is extended by 30 days after each rental without a fee ;)
It is also the question about new listing, cards whom you put new for rent or for sale.
Why not also implement “resource credit” based on SPS staked to bypass this fee?
This might help SL's back end,but I predict a decline in use of the rental market given that the fees would have to be calculated into the rental prices.
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So you just made renting unviable, well done...slow clap. Yet another reason not to have a collection, renting spares was the only reason to have them.
Terrible idea. The team already takes a % of every sale or rent. This is not decreasing costs, it's increasing revenue in a very predatory way.
I agree, nothing to do with volume of transactions(on a fee-less chain that can handle it). Just another moneygrab from the SL team
Every time I feel like I'm making headway in this game there is a new proposal that wrecks the rewards from an investment (Land) and reduces other income (Rentals).
I need to consider if renting is now worth it.
at first i was pretty pissed about this change. now that i've digested it, i'm okay with it. my favorite is the minimum rent, but i trust that the team made a better decision with data and that it will bring more benefits than a minimum rent!
If the problem are really the bots who update cards Thousands of times a day why punish the player who want sell or rent a card for this ?
I mean it would be very easy: Every player has 1.000 listings free every month and listing 1.001 and more cost something. In this case I would be even fine to take 5 dec, but the normal player should IMO be able to list a few cards for free.
if your card is rented regularly, you never pay the 1 dec. again. after every rental, the time period to cancel is extended by another 30 days. if someone rents your card on the 29th day. it stays on the market for 30 days longer again. so you only sort out the cards that are not rented anyway. it also has advantages for us. so we have cards that no one rents anyway directly to hand and do not have to cancel the rentals first. because we see so which cards. are rented and which is moldy there for years^^
ok but you don't tell anything about my suggestion.
Why not let every user 1.000 listings free every month and take fee only from 1.001st listing ?
In this case you would reach the goal to stop bots update card prices Thousands of times a day without affect the normal user who list a few cards.
As I told I am even fine if the first 1.000 in a month are free and from 1.001st it cost 5 dec.
i don't know, maybe it's easier to implement. or safer from fraudsters who then just use multiple accounts. maybe you want to use the opportunity directly to build in a dec burn. i don't know. but i am but i think that the cost use ratio is excellent. and if only after 1000 transactions a fee is incurred. then all my cards that have not been rented for months remain on the market. even now just put your rentals before the patch and you have no fees and in 30 days only the cards fall out that no one wanted anyway ;)
Because they are money grabber and instead of ban bots they milk players, all changes past year are in that direction, first ghost card, then level cards, now this
Interesting:
Splexx.gg
What a nice tool that Splinterland team has recently added to the game.
Have a question if you don't mind, Is this game still a play2earn or we should name it play2burn?
Just two hours ago a friend of mine is asking about the play2earn game do I prefer him splinterlands?
I should tell him if you join splinterlands by paying 10$ he will be rewarded with:
You don't pay 5% fee for buying cards, you pay it for selling cards
And you think that's not considered when setting the price?
This is a great update to push out casual renters and solidify the market for card lords.
It'd be nice if you could stop implementing changes that only benefit earnings for the top 0.01% of players. It's disappointing seeing change after change negatively impact the rest of us.
@fighter4-freedom Sorry I hurt your feelings 🤷♂
No worries, you didn't hurt my feelings, you just made a massive generalization that's way off base.
As one of the biggest card holders in the game, I'll be hit WAY harder than most owners. But this is good for the overall ecosystem, so I'm ok with it.
Too many BCX for PM to even calculate. 🤷♀
I wouldn't say it was way off base. I can agree you'll be hit hard by the fee implementation, but it looks like that's mainly due to the number of BCX 1 commons you have listed for rent.
Out of those 174k cards, it looks like you have 42.4k listed for rent.
Out of those 42.4k cards, it looks like you have 22.7k common cards listed for rent.
Out of those 22.7k common cards, it looks like you have 21.2k BCX 1 common cards for rent. With these cards only earning 329 DEC out of 2200 DEC listed, I can agree that you'll be hit hard on these. These cards are also making up just over half of your rentals so I'd say they're skewing your numbers. If you removed them from market, you'd likely still be doing fairly well overall.
Do you really need 304 BCX 1 Chaos Agents listed for rent?
I can also agree that, from what I can see, you're not constantly updating prices, but with regards to the server load, even your cancellations have a massive impact. This is 1 of 6 similar sized transactions from the same day.
My point is, it's not the average player that's nuking the servers and flooding the market with low level cards. Do they contribute? Of course they do, but the impact is nowhere near that of the card lords.
The irony is that the majority of people championing for these fees are running accounts that look just like yours. Granted, they're scaled down to the 10-20k card range, but the impact is still significant over the average player.
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Definitely going to be changing things up to become more efficient. Which is kind of the point of this update.
There are lots of cards renting out for 0.1 DEC per day even though they are not renting out all but just for listing each card you will charge 1 DEC this is not good at all. Lots of players are using Splex.gg tool which is an automated tool that placed all your Cards for rent at 0.1 DEC per day especially single BCX so if the player is not willing to rent your cards then you will only pay instead of earning DEC from the rental service.
Instead of always design something new how it would be if you would solve your old problems first, f.e. that you can only see the first 100 participants in a tournament or is this to difficult for you to solve ?
I'm OK with this if it fixes the frustrating card rental delays that have kept popping up every now and then these last few weeks.
Next step should be bring this into effect when the card owner cancels the rent. Reset the listing status and allow them to spend 1 dec each time they pull the card back. It's a minimal cost for some higher end cards. Maybe down the road having a fine to pay to the renter of like 20% of the total down payment to rent the card might be in order--unless there is some other system being designed which is definitely a possibility.
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BEER.the more i think about the fee change, the clearer it becomes to me that this is genius, the guy who came up with it must be a genius. high efficiency, at the lowest cost for all of us.
Card Sales should not expire. There are cards historically listed at high prices but owners MIA. During the next bull these cards will be needed!
Please rethink this bit!
I'm not sure if I like this change but can understand wanting to cut server costs. It won't hurt the big players too much as 1 DEC from max card rentals isn't much but 1 DEC from level 1/3 cards that are only renting for >1-5 DEC will feel the sting. I would like to see a small amount of free rental listings so accounts that have a relatively small collection can utilize the rental market without the listing fee.
I like this change. It burns DEC for those who are not paying attention; and allows the programs with NFTY Arcade and other 1 on 1 agreements between players, card holders and scholars to continue as they do now.
Allow me to elaborate, though:
All new reward cards are soul bound. Traditionally, the market for 1BCX cards were in legendary or epic cards that are not part of the "ghost cards" or starter set.
This means that there will be less of these 1 BCX starter set cards thrown onto the market by bots and people in hopes of people trying to fulfil Collection Power for higher leagues.
This change is done in concert with other changes that make the game more efficient for those who are paying attention as new players:
I think that this is a change that needs to be observed not in isolation, but in in concert with the other changes that are on the roadmap that everyone knows are coming, along with those that have already been implemented.
Finally, a question: has the Splinterlands team contemplated the impact that a third party developer may have if they were to build an alternative marketplace that did not use sm_rent tx; but instead did "delegations for x" instead?
Would this not defeat the purpose of this proposed "tx fee" on the markets, and just shift the load (and presumed AWS server costs) - elsewhere?
" Finally, a question: has the Splinterlands team contemplated the impact that a third party developer may have if they were to build an alternative marketplace that did not use sm_rent tx; but instead did "delegations for x" instead?
Would this not defeat the purpose of this proposed "tx fee" on the markets, and just shift the load (and presumed AWS server costs) - elsewhere?"
For my understanding this would not really work great as in this case IMO the card owner can take back the cards every time and not only to the end of the rental contract (minimum 2 days, than every day).
So as renter you can't be sure to have the card for 2 days, the card owner can take them back 5 minutes after you rent them, isn't it ?
This would require trust between the two individuals.
Yes but you spoke from a " third party developer", so I understand that you mean something like Peakmonsters.
Let's say if Peakmonsters would do it in that way how they could be sure that every owner will accept the time and not take back cards manuelly.
In addition it can also happen in error, you just select a wrong card and the renter lost his card for playing even if he has paid for it.
I thought a little bit and I think it is possible.
Peakmonster even done it at the start in that way:
Peakmonster (for example) take the escrow from the renter of the card and keep it.
When the contract (or day) finish normally Peakmonsters pay (for example every day) the escrow to the cardowner (95%).
When the cardowner has undelegated the card peakmonster sent the escrow back to the renter and the cardowner get nothing.
Could be done with any service :)
Yes, it was just an example with Peakmonsters as I remember that they done it with an escrow when they start, they add this in addition to the rental price and shared it 50/50 when the contract run till the end, when he was cancelled (what could to this also happen when the renter had not enough token for the next day) that one who cancelled got nothing and the other got the complete escrow.
The small renters aren't the problem here. It's accounts like this using Splex (or something similar) with almost 15k cards that are listing hundreds, if not thousands, of 1 bcx cards. The 1 DEC fee per card listing/transaction on an account this size is negligible when you're raking in 115k DEC/day.
Check the collection and sort by level to see for yourself: https://peakmonsters.com/@smalp/cards
The number of transactions this account makes for price updates and cancellations is astronomical.
Scroll through a page or two and see for yourself: https://hiveblocks.com/@smalp
This incentivizes almost all cards rental prices to go lower. Not higher. All 1 bcx cards that sit a little above market will risk being cancelled if no one rents them so they will just get added into the .1 dec sludge pool in hopes of at least getting rented once per 30 days.
The more I think about it they more I think the 30 day cancellation is a mistake. TO think that if I post my card a little above the market and it doesn't work, I'm forced to pay to reprice it lower just means all cards will be driven lower.
Either make it so everyone card is cancelled at 30 days or none of them. This caveat of only cancelling the ones that didn't rent hurts the value of assets and ensures there will always be an abundance of bcx cards at .1 dec for the bots.
What about players who are playing for 2 days straight, want to rest or have some other important things to do than splinterlands and wanted to utilize it by renting cards out and then come back in 2-3 days and play again.
This way that player have to relist the cards again and again to alternate between play and rest. The example of such player is me and I like to use my non splinterlands playing days to earn via rentals. And this is pretty bad for me. I think they should implement that if I put cards again for renting without changing rental price, it should go without fee
First of all there should be proposal of that big changes with rental prices.
I think I will lost so many possible income, only because, I rent out only cheap cards from reward edition. There no much demand for it, so I need to adjust prices from time to time. When I need to put like 1/3 price to update price it is really not worth it for me anymore. At last days of the season, when the price spikes, cuz of new demand for climbing leaderboard I need to adjust like 5-10 times per day my prices, which means with my total cards more waste than income.
Short example:
Let's put 1500 reward cards for listing, let's say that I need to update this several times so it would cost me like 7.5k dec.
At the end of the season I will have about 8k dec minus 5% fee, which is 0 income.
If you really think that these changes are necessary, then I doubt how I can earn from having 6k$ assets with over 3kk collection power just from rentals..
This is a good change and totally in line with what the team has been talking about for quite a while. They want to encourage (or little bit to force) players to level up cards instead of keeping thousands and thousands of level 1 cards available. This is simply another step in that direction. This is not a money grab or whatever, we're talking about less than 0.1 cent per card. It is not like this will pay the programmers' salary... All changes that puts a floor underneath the pricing and reduces the insane amount of transactions that otherwise occur with bots makes it more robust and thus more scalable, Hive fees or no Hive fees. This is a sustainable change.
Other things already made to reduce the bot exploitation/multiple account setups:
I've been playing this game now for 1,5 years or so and are enjoying it right now more than in a long time. The new soulbound cards are great! I'm looking forward to each chest I get since I cannot rent or buy those cards!
Before someone starts the "just ban bots" argument, I want to say that I like the fact that we have thousands of bot accounts because it basically guarantees that I always have someone to play against. They do not get any advantage over me (in Gold/Silver league) that I can see. So, thumbs up from your average Praetorian middle class player...
You do understand they're also keeping and renting out a lot of level 1 cards themselves, right?
It is about the bigger picture; trying to reduce the number of cards in supply in order to create more scarcity. I do not care if they have a bunch of lvl1 cards themselves, they are also then forced to burn DEC to list them. So all in all a DEC sink and probably more stable pricing.
When I started and rented cards I got frustrated when I slipped out of a league because some cards got cancelled and then 10x-ed in price because of end of season pricing. When this season long renting kicks in I think that it will be more beneficial for players trying to rent a deck for playing a whole season and not being subject to last day raises. But we will see.
I don't like this decision
I don't think it will fix lagging issues or delays. But surely it will increase demand for $DEC. A rock will be thrown to the renters watch out for that.
Best Card game ever made 😍😍😍
SpinterRents has closed due to this crappy decision. While I sympathise with your costs situation, the fees have made SPL like any other chains (you pay), so I don't agree with what you are doing.
Change the amount of times you can re-rent to remove the transactions but don't charge us (the buyers of your cards) fees. This is why I will be downvoting this post (not that anyone ever looks at the comments from Splinterlands anyway).
Still think this is an entirely short-sighted plan, to actually Throttle behavior and interactions with the game. A similar approach of Raising the floor to 1 DEC minimum and adjusting the algorithm to do a FIFO queue would accomplish all of the same benefits without seeming to PUNISH players and keep the DEC in the economy. While Increasing Revenue to the game in the form of the 5% transaction that goes to the game.
Can anyone give some insight on why not just limit the number of transactions? There is already a min of 2 days rent and with that a card is ideally rented 7 times during a season. Limiting the number of listings to 7 or lower would do since even with the fee it might just go over that number. But with this 1 DEC fee it seems that this is just about burning DEC not totally addressing limit of transactions.
For those stressed out about this new "taxes" or "fee" you don't really have to worry since just like the 5% taxes on selling, you can always rent your card at your desired price +1DEC and that will be like nothing changed at all for those renting cards while it will help burring DEC.
This will also make those 0.01DEC cards get rented for 1.01DEC or people will stop listing those but I doubt it will be that much impact on the renting market for the users.
Of course taxes implementation is always something that scare people but if it's good for the servers and if it help the DEC peg project overtime, it should be positive.
So unless there is something else I don't see right now, this seems like good implementation.
I am completely against it. I can understand the problem, but there must be better solutions. For example, that you can only change the price once every par hours. That just seems greedy again and the ones who suffer are the services that are built around Splinterlands (peakmonsers, splexx etc).
Do I understand this correctly? I should pay 1 DEC for each listing? Then it makes no sense to list small cards for 2-3 days at short notice. Because the costs no longer come in. What a crap.... Why are you ruining the game experience?